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  #51  
Old 12-17-2013, 05:49 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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The problem with the Horde story is that it constantly asks me to accept stupid bullshit and treats me like an idiot.
So, no different from how the Horde story treats the Horde?
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  #52  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:19 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Rabid? Hardly. You're exceptionally mild. But I seem to recall you having issues with conflicting ideas of Horde honor before in regards to questions of Horde failures to live up to their own sense of honor.
I have issues because it confuses everyone including Horde fans. A lot of them prefer the pre-Garrosh days where we had a consistent idea of what honor meant for them. This was highlighted in Wrath imo. Then Garrosh becomes Warchief. After that we have everyone saying they're bringing honor to the Horde are those who disagree aren't, which is why fans still debate whether or not Garrosh was in the right and if the rebellion should've rebelled.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #53  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:23 AM
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The orcish honor is as consistent as Garrosh's personality.
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  #54  
Old 12-17-2013, 06:36 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
The orcish honor is as consistent as Garrosh's personality.
This.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #55  
Old 12-17-2013, 07:50 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
First, it's an alternate universe. Second, Doomhammer was driven by resource issues and the fact that diplomacy with humans would be impossible. Third, I almost guarantee that much of the Iron Horde won't be all that villainous and will be swept into the main Horde to replenish its losses from the last expansion. Finally, this is still after the ancestors supposedly told the orcs that the draenei were plotting to wipe them out, Garrosh just took the war in a different direction.
In the spirit of Chrisoph Faral and Aedis Brom, I'd love to see an orc veteran and a blood elf veteran sitting in a tavern or walking through Orgrimmar, discussing whether Orgrim Doomhammer was a hero or a villain.

(And I'd love for those two to be Utok Scratcher and Milan of the House of Scribes, but meh they were never really canon anyway.)
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  #56  
Old 12-17-2013, 07:53 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
In the spirit of Chrisoph Faral and Aedis Brom, I'd love to see an orc veteran and a blood elf veteran sitting in a tavern or walking through Orgrimmar, discussing whether Orgrim Doomhammer was a hero or a villain.

(And I'd love for those two to be Utok Scratcher and Milan of the House of Scribes, but meh they were never really canon anyway.)
He did what he thought was necessary. For a fair comparison, you'd need to have an orc, a blood elf, a Revantusk and a Forsaken.
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  #57  
Old 12-17-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
He did what he thought was necessary.
Perhaps, but he was still a butcher and oversaw (and infact approved of) horrendous actions.

I just finished my semi-regular readthrough of Tides of Darkness and he is actively DELIGHTED that survivors in the Ruins of Stormwind are, and I quote: "Being rounded up and tortured."
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  #58  
Old 12-17-2013, 07:57 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
Perhaps, but he was still a butcher and oversaw (and infact approved of) horrendous actions.

I just finished my semi-regular readthrough of Tides of Darkness and he is actively DELIGHTED that survivors in the Ruins of Stormwind are, and I quote: "Being rounded up and tortured."
Like most of the lore, it can't stick to a consistent portrayal of the Horde.
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  #59  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:02 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Like most of the lore, it can't stick to a consistent portrayal of the Horde.
That means you should really stop trying.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #60  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:04 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
That means you should really stop trying.
I will do my utmost to find the threads of Watsonian logic to keep a universe as internally consistent as possible.
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  #61  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:06 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
I will do my utmost to find the threads of Watsonian logic to keep a universe as internally consistent as possible.
I don't buy it.

Not when you systematically go out of your way to white-wash the Horde.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #62  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:08 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I don't buy it.

Not when you systematically go out of your way to white-wash the Horde.
Given that they're repeatedly accepted by neutral factions as being as heroic as the Alliance, without ever being attacked by said neutral factions, I see the best portrayals possible as being the most internally consistent with the fewest problems.
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  #63  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:16 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Given that they're repeatedly accepted by neutral factions as being as heroic as the Alliance, without ever being attacked by said neutral factions, I see the best portrayals possible as being the most internally consistent with the fewest problems.
I am of the exact opposite opinion.

The idea that the argents and cenarion circle are "okay" with the Horde is mind-bogglingly stupid to me.
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  #64  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:17 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
He did what he thought was necessary. For a fair comparison, you'd need to have an orc, a blood elf, a Revantusk and a Forsaken.
Hey, I like your points about resource issues and the unlikelihood of diplomacy with the humans at that moment--no one believes Lothar would've let the orcs stay in Stormwind without a fight if they just said "I'm sorry". And that's the kind of stuff I'd expect to hear from the orcish veteran. I'd expect the blood elf veteran to bring up everything else.

You could add a Forsaken and a Revantusk to the discussion, but I'm just talking about a little back-and-forth flavor conversation--like Christoph and Aedis. Adding more folks might be redundant, since the Forsaken person probably wouldn't have anything kind to say about Orgrim.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 12-17-2013 at 08:25 AM..
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  #65  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:23 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
Perhaps, but he was still a butcher and oversaw (and infact approved of) horrendous actions.

I just finished my semi-regular readthrough of Tides of Darkness and he is actively DELIGHTED that survivors in the Ruins of Stormwind are, and I quote: "Being rounded up and tortured."
I still think that more Forsaken and blood elves should be upset that the Horde capital is named after him.
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  #66  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:28 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
a Revantusk
Actually... I hadn't thought about it before, but wouldn't it be cool if we suddenly started seeing Forest Troll and other non-Darkspear NPCs in Orgrimmar and the Echo Isles? Sort of a global consequence of Vol'jin becoming warchief, with other trolls seeing the Horde route as the best course for restoration of troll influence?

There would still be loads of troll enemies in the world, since not everyone would be convinced. Naturally.
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  #67  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:34 AM
CosmicGuitars CosmicGuitars is offline

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Gallywix's representation in-game is terrible.

In both his leader short story and even Tides of War, Gallywix was almost likable in his opulence and megalomania. He was the epitome of goblinity, and he just stole every scene he was in. In-game, however, he's portrayed as an incompetent slaver who is left in charge of the Bilgewater Cartel by Thrall for reasons unexplained, and vanished off the face of the world all-together until the Siege of Orgrimmar with just a few scattered mentions. Hell, he wasn't even in his own Pleasure Palace. Instead, Trade Prince Donais (who we only know has ties to the Southsea Freebooters) is sitting there. I feel like they intended for him to be in Siegecrafter Blackfuse's spot in the Siege of Orgrimmar, but they either never had time to build up a replacement, or had other reasons to leave him in charge.

Either way, I'd rather see more of Christie Golden's Jastor Gallywix then what Blizzard's writers have provided.

The other major issue I have with the Horde's story is Baine Bloodhoof, but.. I won't get into that one because I can rant and rave about it for hours and hours. I'll just simply say that I wish he was given better characterization and did more than sit back and act like Vol'jin's yes-man. Magatha still hasn't been brought to justice, and he blames his father's death on Garrosh despite the fact he came to terms with Garrosh's lack of involvement in his father's death in the Tides of War novel.

He really just needs to move forward and placing the blame on the pawn.

Last edited by CosmicGuitars; 12-17-2013 at 08:38 AM..
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  #68  
Old 12-17-2013, 08:56 AM
Mark_Romaneck Mark_Romaneck is offline

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Its almost as if Doomhammer was the lovechild of Megatron and Optimus
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  #69  
Old 12-17-2013, 09:09 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Garrosh was Thrall's fault. Thrall told him a false narrative and gave him too much power. This would of never happened if Thrall didn't misunderstand his own people. In WoD we are going to learn that most of the orcish heroes were actually bad. There was never was this noble heritage.
OR they are merely counterparts who developed as totally different people.

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Thrall finding out that the orcs had always been a cruel, aggressive culture might have been a really interesting plot line in Burning Crusade. Unfortunately, I think Blizzard waited too long to put it into action.
Thrall knew about it since forever. He admits just that in his prologue/epilogue parts of the Rise of the Horde. Heck, WC3 ALREADY touched upon "You damned our people... WILLINGLY?!" He knew that all those heroes weren't entirely heroic.
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  #70  
Old 12-17-2013, 09:12 AM
CosmicGuitars CosmicGuitars is offline

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OR they are merely counterparts who developed as totally different people.
The point of the divergence is, what, three years? Everything before Garrosh's arrival is the Horde we used to know. They could not have changed that dramatically in a mere three years. These are still the Orcish heroes/villains we know. They're just being thrust into a different situation in a different time. Their core personalities are the same, their core ideals are the same. They're the same people, just being led a different direction by different manipulators.
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  #71  
Old 12-17-2013, 09:25 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by CosmicGuitars View Post
The point of the divergence is, what, three years? Everything before Garrosh's arrival is the Horde we used to know. They could not have changed that dramatically in a mere three years. These are still the Orcish heroes/villains we know. They're just being thrust into a different situation in a different time. Their core personalities are the same, their core ideals are the same. They're the same people, just being led a different direction by different manipulators.
From what we have seen? No. Their looks, personalities, backstories and goals are completely different (except for... Gul'dan?)

I mean, you can go "retcon" and say that they were meant to be such all along... But isn't it easier to explore the fact that this is indeed an alternate timeline with no determinism of "how things should happen".

That would be at least a little better writing than lazy retcons that border on nothing else but "Meh, we don't really care about the old stuff."

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Something that has not once ever been demonstrated outside that fucking page.

That racial page is literally incompatible with almost the entirety of the Forsaken storyline.
Yeah, I don't remember when the Forsaken were actually threatened, much less attacked by anyone who wasn't immediately frowned upon because of it (the Scarlets and Varian Wrynn)

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
[/CENTER]
Ha! Doomhammer has always got a free pass on villainy! Nothing's gonna change!

Seriously, though. NONE of the evil villainous "Warlords" have ever been as bad as Doomhammer. You have to go out of your way (making Kilrogg and Kargath fucking crazy) to turn them into villains of the same level Doomhammer was.

But, nope! Orgrim was good!

In fact, if he appears and becomes a villain, that's our best chance that WoD has no determinism and developed differently. Why? Because "OUR" DOOMHAMMER WOULD NEVER BE AS EVIL AS THAT GUY!
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  #72  
Old 12-17-2013, 12:45 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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[*]Tauren: Well for the most part they don't want to fight the Alliance, especially under Baine. Other than, as you mentioned, the actions of the Explorers League in excavating tauren territory (which incidentally I do believe was justified by the interests of archaelogy and discovery while the RPG books represent a much less antagonistic dispute than how it was portrayed in the game) and the looming threat of an expanding Alliance in the Barrens, the tauren would largely prefer it if everyone just got along. They're a nomadic people, they have no more hatred for the Alliance than they would for the Horde if any of their races had wronged them. I don't believe that kind of common humanistic perspective is a bad thing to have inside the Horde.
Actually the dwarves exterminated a Tauren tribe in the barrens, the Stonespire Tribe. New Baine's reaction "Herp Derp, the dwarves actions are ok, exile any tauren who disagrees, this should help make me more loved as High Tauren chieftain."

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
Gallywix and Sylvanas are pretty terrible people, yes. But they're still there. They're still part of the Horde. They're still characters that you'll have to interact with, even if you don't like them as people. And the reason that Gallywix was appointed was largely due to political expediency on the part of Thrall. He might have liked what he seen in the Bilgewater goblins, but he still had more important things on his mind then. He was on a quest to the heart of the ocean to heal the world against the Destroyer. He wasn't and shouldn't have felt terribly involved in the inter-politics of a lone goblin cartel, he was leaving the decision largely up to the goblins themselves and they seem to have reconciled themselves with the idea of being represented by the great Gallywix.
Except both Sassy and the player's Goblin were right by Gallywix, had proven themselves far more competent and capable then Gallywix(who mostly got lucky, Gallywix was going to be replaced anyway, and Sassy and the players goblin while being pragmatic, had enough morals to make good leaders to work in the Horde.

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The second part of that first sentence is true but its largely the same case with what could be considered Alliance heroes. There's more than a few instances of contemporary Alliance characters being pitted against others that previously considered themselves part of the same faction (i.e. Arthas, Van Cleef, Kael'thas, Proudmoore etc). The fact that this phenomena of former heroes falling from grace being more pronounced in the Horde is largely what you would expect from a faction that (generally speaking) has more problems with dealing their own conflicted natures.
Arthas turned bad in an entire story arc in Warcraft III, Van Cleef was an enemy NPC as soon as we met him, Kael'thas is a Blood Elf(Horde) Character. The only good example you have here is Daelin Proudmoore.

With Horde, we're getting an entire expansion solely about killing Horde Heroes, even guys that recent lore said were alright like Kilrogg.


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I think you're misunderstanding the ethos of the tauren. They're not cruel. They don't believe justice should be punitive. They believe in doing what is right like protecting the tribe and maintaining family, but they don't want to lose themselves pursuing vengeance and conflict. Baine is a good avatar of this mantra, even if he might not have the nostalgic appeal of his father Baine. I think you have either a wrong expectation of who the tauren are or a negative personal reaction towards forms of pacifism.
The quilboar haven't been butchering the tauren anymore than the kobolds have been terrorizing the Northshire. They're violent, largely unintelligent and very territorial, but you're presenting their threat as some kind of existential danger that Baine personally let go unopposed when the history of the matter is that Baine went in to their home and flushed them out.
As mentioned above, the dwarves wiped out a tauren tribe to only a few individuals, for Baine, High Chieftain of all Tauren Tribes, to just dismiss them as whiners and exile, is an incredible dick move and easy way to lose supports among the tauren tribes.

In Warcraft III, as soon as the orcs meet a tauren, he's immediately slain by a quilboar, additionally the quests in WoW make it clear that Quillboar have been persecutting tauren for quite some time. Even in that short story, the quillboar respond by killing his ambassador, and Baine's all like "Derp, lets try again."

We've seen in Warcraft III, the old Baine who even said at one point "Words are no longer the answer", and various quests that the tauren do believe in battle when pushed.
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  #73  
Old 12-17-2013, 01:32 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Yeah, I don't remember when the Forsaken were actually threatened, much less attacked by anyone who wasn't immediately frowned upon because of it (the Scarlets and Varian Wrynn)
I guess that depends on the time in which Sylvanas gathered the Forsaken. We see her free trying to kill Arthas, but that's just with a few fellow banshees. Where are the other freed undead? When do they come into the picture? It's not until the next mission when she only has a small group under her charge. When did she gather those undead to her? See? There are gaps in the RTS narrative.

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Ha! Doomhammer has always got a free pass on villainy! Nothing's gonna change!

Seriously, though. NONE of the evil villainous "Warlords" have ever been as bad as Doomhammer. You have to go out of your way (making Kilrogg and Kargath fucking crazy) to turn them into villains of the same level Doomhammer was.

But, nope! Orgrim was good!

In fact, if he appears and becomes a villain, that's our best chance that WoD has no determinism and developed differently. Why? Because "OUR" DOOMHAMMER WOULD NEVER BE AS EVIL AS THAT GUY!
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  #74  
Old 12-17-2013, 02:08 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Can we also address the Horde's schizophrenic policy regarding slavery?

I mean Reghar appointed as an advisor. The Crimson ring operating out of the Honor vendor location in Org?

Hammuul beng -aware- Reghar is a slaveowner and not promptly calling guards to haul him away?

The slaveowner in durotar who acts as if nothing he's doing is shady?

I mean you'd think the Orcs would have an issue with slavery after whining about humans 'enslaving' them in the internment camps but no, they seem 100% fine with it.
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  #75  
Old 12-17-2013, 02:09 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I don't think the orcs know how to run a society so everyone pretty much does what ever they want.
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