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  #51  
Old 02-15-2015, 06:26 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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You'd have to seed the cooler fey satyr in another expansion. Since we want a more cohesive narrative, it also makes sense for the pre-ED expansion to lead into the ED expansion.
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  #52  
Old 02-15-2015, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Ogres would probably have a stronger hook. Them and Arakkoa got the biggest chunk of NPC race development in WoD and they both have solidly distinct architectural styles they can bring to the table now.

I wouldn't mind if they brought something unique to the factions in their own way. Arakkoa could bring a sort of "non-evil" shadow worship to the Alliance that's different from the Forsaken's connection with the Forgotten Shadow. Ogres it's a little harder to think of what they could bring, but I think they could bring a form of Magi that aren't Blood Elven in style and overtones.

Although to be fair I don't know where Ogres would fit in an Emerald Dream expansion. It would be a lot like how Worgen didn't fit the narrative of Cataclysm, and I think that's an issue that should be avoided.
Not to derail the thread too much, but I think that Blizzard's argument with goblins and worgen joining in Cata was that the Shattering forced them to pick a side in order to survive. Overall the worgen probably deserved a better expansion to come in with (they mesh much better with an ED expansion, I'd say) but all told, from a certain line of reasoning they made perfect sense in Cataclysm.

Re: ogres, the WoD makeover helps to break them out of being dumb brutes being ruled by slightly-less-dumb brutes, but by contrast their approach to magic feels much more brute-force oriented rather than the more analytical approach that elven magic is focused on.

Having patrician ogres on the Horde satisfies my age-old desire for ogres to be on that faction, but it also provides another aristocratic race that is still recently acquainted with the trappings of majesty. Having ogres and blood elves debating art feels like comic gold to me.
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  #53  
Old 02-15-2015, 06:35 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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They definitely fit the idea of a shattered world, but the main meat of Cataclysm, the elemental unrest and Thrall's drama... a bit tougher to find a place for them to fit in.

And yeah that's definitely how I'd want to see Ogres shape up. A sort of savage race that is evolving into a more cultured, magical society without necessarily becoming elves because of it.
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  #54  
Old 02-15-2015, 06:36 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
And yeah that's definitely how I'd want to see Ogres shape up. A sort of savage race that is evolving into a more cultured, magical society without necessarily becoming elves because of it.
I dunno, you look at the patricians in Lords of War, wearing togas and nomming pomegranates, and that says "pretty damn cultured already" to me.
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  #55  
Old 02-15-2015, 06:43 PM
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I would love for Ogres to actually end up the bridge between the Belfs and the rest of the Horde as they regain their magical skill.
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  #56  
Old 02-15-2015, 06:51 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I dunno, you look at the patricians in Lords of War, wearing togas and nomming pomegranates, and that says "pretty damn cultured already" to me.
I know, I really liked them.

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I would love for Ogres to actually end up the bridge between the Belfs and the rest of the Horde as they regain their magical skill.
That would work good as well.

I wonder if there's a way that the non-cursed Arakkoa could use shadow magic without becoming cursed like their brethren. I'm not sure if it was because of the shadow magic that cursed them or not though, would have to do Spires again.

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 02-15-2015 at 06:53 PM..
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  #57  
Old 02-15-2015, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I know, I really liked them.



That would work good as well.

I wonder if there's a way that the non-cursed Arakkoa could use shadow magic without becoming cursed like their brethren. I'm not sure if it was because of the shadow magic that cursed them or not though, would have to do Spires again.
It wasn't really using shadow magic that cursed them; it was getting cast down and getting coated in the blood of Sethe that cursed them and shut off their access to Light-magic. Turning to shadow magic was their only option at that point.
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  #58  
Old 02-16-2015, 10:36 AM
Xarthat Xarthat is offline

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There's a part of me that feels like satyrs, even with a newer hotter model, don't compete with arrakoa for cool points. It gets into the Pandaren problem of a race that's got broad enough appeal that you'd lose either way if you only gave it to one faction, so the only feasible solution is to give it to both.
You know, two years ago mentioning Arakkoa as a race potentially so cool that they'd need to be on both factions would only lead to mocking laughter.

I chose this specific race choice because:
1) I just want arakkoa to be playable. Emerald Dream expansion could fit them, barely, because of the Anzu link. One would expect more people would not care about arakkoa being playable... but times change, I suppose.
2) I was thinking what other race could be playable, and more directly related to the Emerald Dream. Since this expansion gives a lot of spotlight to satyrs, and I wanted a "fey prankster satyr" character to be playable, I figured they'd fit here well. They probably wouldn't be "slam dunk" race of the expansion, but they'd give some new, cool character archetypes to play with.
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  #59  
Old 02-16-2015, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Xarthat View Post
You know, two years ago mentioning Arakkoa as a race potentially so cool that they'd need to be on both factions would only lead to mocking laughter.

I chose this specific race choice because:
1) I just want arakkoa to be playable. Emerald Dream expansion could fit them, barely, because of the Anzu link. One would expect more people would not care about arakkoa being playable... but times change, I suppose.
2) I was thinking what other race could be playable, and more directly related to the Emerald Dream. Since this expansion gives a lot of spotlight to satyrs, and I wanted a "fey prankster satyr" character to be playable, I figured they'd fit here well. They probably wouldn't be "slam dunk" race of the expansion, but they'd give some new, cool character archetypes to play with.
Perhaps the better way to phrase that statement is this: of the people who want playable arakkoa, there is likely not a noticeable bias of which faction they're on. Hence, adding the arakkoa to one faction and not the other aggravates the people on the faction that didn't get them.

You and I have argued in the past about adding more races to the game (for everyone who hasn't seen those fights, I don't think the game needs more races) but if I set that aside in order to give you useful feedback, it's to say that arakkoa can mesh easily with either faction and bring more cool to the table than satyrs.
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  #60  
Old 02-16-2015, 10:55 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Worgen and pandaren were like that too. I wonder if the arakkoa would share their fate.
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  #61  
Old 02-16-2015, 10:57 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I'm not a fan of neutral races, especially given how it was handled with Pandaren.
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  #62  
Old 02-16-2015, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I'm not a fan of neutral races, especially given how it was handled with Pandaren.
Imho, every new race schould be neutral. Complaints or praise from everyone, regardless of faction.

They just need to avoid adding another, separate faction of that new race.
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  #63  
Old 02-16-2015, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Imho, every new race schould be neutral. Complaints or praise from everyone, regardless of faction.

They just need to avoid adding another, separate faction of that new race.
The problem comes down to resources. Having the pandaren as both a playable race and a series of separate non-faction aligned groups allowed them to get a ton of mileage out of pandaren architecture and set dressing. In Cataclysm, Worgen architecture was sorely underused outside of Gilneas, while Goblins a) didn't require as many new assets and b) could be used in both Horde-centric and neutral applications just as readily.
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  #64  
Old 02-16-2015, 11:28 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Tushui/Huojin didn't even have anything other than just a tent with their faction symbol on it.
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  #65  
Old 02-16-2015, 11:48 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Tushui/Huojin didn't even have anything other than just a tent with their faction symbol on it.
... which should reinforce the sense that Blizzard wasn't really interested in trying to force a real dichotomy between the Tushui and Huojin philosophies. That doesn't necessarily mean that, with a future neutral race, they wouldn't make more of effort to really put a spike between the two.
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  #66  
Old 02-16-2015, 11:56 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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... which should reinforce the sense that Blizzard wasn't really interested in trying to force a real dichotomy between the Tushui and Huojin philosophies. That doesn't necessarily mean that, with a future neutral race, they wouldn't make more of effort to really put a spike between the two.
I'd prefer it if they didn't. Neutral races should truly be neutral. Those working with the Horde, those working with the Alliance and all the NPC's working with neither faction should all be part of the same group, and none of them should be members of the Alliance or Horde.

That way you avoid having to flesh out two or more groups.

On the other hand... it could be nice... if Blizzard actually manages to focus on both groups, it could be nice. Maybe I should think more positively.

Last edited by Nazja; 02-16-2015 at 12:00 PM..
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  #67  
Old 02-16-2015, 04:47 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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I'd prefer it if they didn't. Neutral races should truly be neutral. Those working with the Horde, those working with the Alliance and all the NPC's working with neither faction should all be part of the same group, and none of them should be members of the Alliance or Horde.

That way you avoid having to flesh out two or more groups.

On the other hand... it could be nice... if Blizzard actually manages to focus on both groups, it could be nice. Maybe I should think more positively.
... are we still talking about player races? Because you can't introduce a player race that doesn't align with a) Red, b) Blue, or c) Red & Blue.

A playable neutral faction would literally break the game. Not just from a code standpoint, but everything down to the very culture of the game itself is broken if players can opt out of factions entirely.
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  #68  
Old 02-16-2015, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
... are we still talking about player races? Because you can't introduce a player race that doesn't align with a) Red, b) Blue, or c) Red & Blue.

A playable neutral faction would literally break the game. Not just from a code standpoint, but everything down to the very culture of the game itself is broken if players can opt out of factions entirely.
Gameplay and lore separation. You choose a faction to work with, but lorewise, you're actually neutral and could, theoretically, do some jobs for the other faction too.

Edit:
It's basically the same thing you got with the pandaren but without the silly Huojin/Tushui factions that amounted to nothing. If you applied it to the pandaren, they'd all simply be Wandering Isle pandaren with different employers, instead of fully committing to the A/H and being willing to slaughter their own people. They'd still be able to kill other pandaren in PvP, but those kills would not be considered canon.

Now, let's go further and imagine that all the pandaren are from Pandaria. Thanks to not having Tushui and Huojin, Blizzard can focus on one single group of pandaren without having to hear that the PC pandaren have no lore.

Last edited by Nazja; 02-16-2015 at 05:12 PM..
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  #69  
Old 02-17-2015, 08:34 AM
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Burning legion centered expansion that begins Lordaeron but bridges into Xoroth. The Dreadlords (Balnazzar, Varimathras and Detheroc) come back and launch a full scale invasion of the Lordaeron, mainly because of the weakened state Lordaeron is in compared to the rest of Azeroth and how its mostly anarchic, but also vindictive in nature aswell wishing to exact their revenge on Sylvanas.

I had originally thought it would be neat to have it all centered Lordaeron but Xoroth would be a better fit.

The Worgen are going to be major players in the expansion for the Alliance, fulfilling a goal as why they were summoned into Azeroth and more.

Having Danath come back with his seasoned knowledge in not only fighting Orcs but Demons as well. Not only restoring Stromgarde but establishing it as a major Bulwark against the Burning Legion and Dreadlord forces.
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  #70  
Old 02-17-2015, 11:41 AM
Xarthat Xarthat is offline

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So, what options do we still have for expansions?
-Emerald Dream (wait, I'm doing this one!)
-South Seas (a lot of people seem to be doing these... no wonder)
-"Underdark" (various "the Dark Below" and Azjol-Nerub ideas fit in this category)
(And let's go a bit off the rail here)
-as of yet undiscovered continent on the other side of Azeroth. Africa and/or India inspiration?
-"Moon" expansion. Gnomes and goblins lead high tech expedition to the White Lady to fight a rogue Titan who attacked Azeroth, and meet the real Elune.
-"Mars" expansion. A red, dying world whose last survivors launched a desperate invasion of Azeroth with War of the Worlds-inspired stuff.
-The vaunted Burning Legion expansion, which has such a huge scope, it seems really hard to put it in one expansion.

I'm a sucker for the more odd-ball ideas, like what Emerald Dream seems to be these days, or the Moon or Mars expansions.
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  #71  
Old 02-17-2015, 11:43 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xarthat View Post
So, what options do we still have for expansions?
-Emerald Dream (wait, I'm doing this one!)
-South Seas (a lot of people seem to be doing these... no wonder)
-"Underdark" (various "the Dark Below" and Azjol-Nerub ideas fit in this category)
(And let's go a bit off the rail here)
-as of yet undiscovered continent on the other side of Azeroth. Africa and/or India inspiration?
-"Moon" expansion. Gnomes and goblins lead high tech expedition to the White Lady to fight a rogue Titan who attacked Azeroth, and meet the real Elune.
-"Mars" expansion. A red, dying world whose last survivors launched a desperate invasion of Azeroth with War of the Worlds-inspired stuff.
-The vaunted Burning Legion expansion, which has such a huge scope, it seems really hard to put it in one expansion.

I'm a sucker for the more odd-ball ideas, like what Emerald Dream seems to be these days, or the Moon or Mars expansions.
We already had the mars expansion, it's called Warcraft: Orcs and Humans.
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  #72  
Old 02-17-2015, 11:50 AM
Xarthat Xarthat is offline

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We already had the mars expansion, it's called Warcraft: Orcs and Humans.
I must have missed all those tripods and black smoke the orcs were using back then.

I mean, all it had in common was "red, dying world". There was not a single sliver of "Martian invasion" in it.
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  #73  
Old 02-17-2015, 11:56 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Titan/Uld expansion with all the zones being part of a huge facility.
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  #74  
Old 02-17-2015, 12:18 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Titan/Uld expansion with all the zones being part of a huge facility.
After seeing all the cool types of mech enemies they made for hearthstone, a mechanical themed expansion like that could be really cool.
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  #75  
Old 02-17-2015, 12:31 PM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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After seeing all the cool types of mech enemies they made for hearthstone, a mechanical themed expansion like that could be really cool.
I remember way back seeing on mmoc a expac idea of gnomes opening a portal to a mechagnome planet, just machines and stuff everywhere.
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