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  #10501  
Old 06-17-2017, 09:46 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
I mean, that fears one of the things that white nationalists/supremacists fear?

The continued push and mainstream rise of anti-white bigotry and academias war against whiteness, shift towarpds pro-segragation, and millitant organization against those who oppose them is only strengthening that fear
So you're saying that fringe student groups and extremists on one side of the spectrum give credence to those on the other? That we should flee to our respective fringes and let reactionary politics takeover and repress each other?

Academia doesn't have a war on whiteness. If anything, it's a war against segregationism and groups perpetuating racial superiority. Giving minorities a chance to tell their stories is naturally going to take up airtime previously dedicated to whites, sure, but that doesn't mean it's anti-white. It just means it's actually telling the whole history of humanity. You wouldn't be able to eat peanut butter without a black guy. Is that not allowed in a text book? Or if it is, is he "special" and the average non-white person isn't considered "good enough" to be in history while the average white person is? That's the war Academia is fighting. Whether they do it correctly is another story, but they aren't out to get Whites, they're out to empower minorities who were previously an oppressed class. To give them the same chances that whites tend to get today.

Plus, let's be honest here, the "rise of anti-white bigotry" is a bullshit statement. Minority groups have always been prejudiced against majority groups, regardless of the color of their skin. Harlem in the 70's was not a safe place for a white person, mostly because a larger part of the city wasn't safe for Blacks. It's a question of how much power each group has and what percentage of them are willing to wield it inappropriately.

Fewer non-whites are prejudiced today than they were 50 years ago because there's more equality. Blaming an entire culture for fringe groups and saying that those fringes allow for and lend credence to hate-speech is just going backwards. We end up with racial enclaves and violent riots all over again. We end up with lynch mobs again.

So no, your argument doesn't hold water, because it assumes that any hate-speech can be justified.

And I say this having been deeply afraid of the average white southerner for the better part of my life. I'm not going to become some manic anti-white guerrilla just because KKK fuckwits had a rally in my city. And yes, that happened on multiple occasions when I was a kid. Instead I have friends who are white, black, asian, hispanic, etc. You reach out, give them a reason not to fear and hate us, and also to learn how to protest properly. More importantly, where the line between equality and oppression really is.
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  #10502  
Old 06-17-2017, 10:04 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
I mean, that fears one of the things that white nationalists/supremacists fear?

The continued push and mainstream rise of anti-white bigotry and academias war against whiteness, shift towarpds pro-segragation, and millitant organization against those who oppose them is only strengthening that fear
There's a degree of hyperbole there, I don't believe Academia has a war on whiteness, and white-supremacist behavior and their fear of 'race war' far predates the modern uptick in political friction. Academia has its problems and I'll agree the current uptick in friction has some anti-white elements but most of it is exasperation and snark rather than outright hostility.
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  #10503  
Old 06-17-2017, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
So you're saying that fringe student groups and extremists on one side of the spectrum give credence to those on the other? That we should flee to our respective fringes and let reactionary politics takeover and repress each other?

Academia doesn't have a war on whiteness. If anything, it's a war against segregationism and groups perpetuating racial superiority. Giving minorities a chance to tell their stories is naturally going to take up airtime previously dedicated to whites, sure, but that doesn't mean it's anti-white. It just means it's actually telling the whole history of humanity. You wouldn't be able to eat peanut butter without a black guy. Is that not allowed in a text book? Or if it is, is he "special" and the average non-white person isn't considered "good enough" to be in history while the average white person is? That's the war Academia is fighting. Whether they do it correctly is another story, but they aren't out to get Whites, they're out to empower minorities who were previously an oppressed class. To give them the same chances that whites tend to get today.

Plus, let's be honest here, the "rise of anti-white bigotry" is a bullshit statement. Minority groups have always been prejudiced against majority groups, regardless of the color of their skin. Harlem in the 70's was not a safe place for a white person, mostly because a larger part of the city wasn't safe for Blacks. It's a question of how much power each group has and what percentage of them are willing to wield it inappropriately.

Fewer non-whites are prejudiced today than they were 50 years ago because there's more equality. Blaming an entire culture for fringe groups and saying that those fringes allow for and lend credence to hate-speech is just going backwards. We end up with racial enclaves and violent riots all over again. We end up with lynch mobs again.

So no, your argument doesn't hold water, because it assumes that any hate-speech can be justified.

And I say this having been deeply afraid of the average white southerner for the better part of my life. I'm not going to become some manic anti-white guerrilla just because KKK fuckwits had a rally in my city. And yes, that happened on multiple occasions when I was a kid. Instead I have friends who are white, black, asian, hispanic, etc. You reach out, give them a reason not to fear and hate us, and also to learn how to protest properly. More importantly, where the line between equality and oppression really is.
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There's a degree of hyperbole there, I don't believe Academia has a war on whiteness, and white-supremacist behavior and their fear of 'race war' far predates the modern uptick in political friction. Academia has its problems and I'll agree the current uptick in friction has some anti-white elements but most of it is exasperation and snark rather than outright hostility.
Evergreen State College would like a word with you.
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  #10504  
Old 06-17-2017, 10:27 PM
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Evergreen State College would like a word with you.
And again, I state, one group does not represent the whole. It's cowardice both to believe and perpetuate the notion that there is no solution to the problem of extremism except segregation and violence. That we can't deprogram people and bring them back into the fold of what real equality means.
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  #10505  
Old 06-17-2017, 10:31 PM
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Evergreen State College would like a word with you.
I've acknowledged that they're bad and crazy, they don't disprove anything that I said though.

Academia has its problems, no group is without them. They've gotten worse recently due to the uptick in political friction, but I feel like folks are trying to turn this into a chicken and egg story when in reality the white-supremacist undercurrent and obsession with race-war predates the modern friction.
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  #10506  
Old 06-17-2017, 11:03 PM
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So you're saying that fringe student groups and extremists on one side of the spectrum give credence to those on the other? That we should flee to our respective fringes and let reactionary politics takeover and repress each other?
Not credence, no.

But the two fuel each other.

More, the two influence the non extremists...They create hate. They influence common discourse. They reinforce stereotypes



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And I say this having been deeply afraid of the average white southerner for the better part of my life.
^ Like this one.
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  #10507  
Old 06-17-2017, 11:14 PM
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As a general statement of principal not directed at anyone specific:

I see comments from bigots of all kinds that boils down to the phrase/hashtag "Yes, all X".

No, not ALL. It is never ALL of any demographic.

But it is SOME.

Then, one has to find out specifically who. Personal accountability is good. Blaming the crimes of some on any whole is bad.

From the who, one derives how many. It is the majority? It is the minority? Is there a "silent majority" with a position? If it is a minority, how many are still in oligarchical positions of power? OMG conspiracies!

Even if it is a majority, I do not see any reason to condemn all of any group or demographic.

But it is SOME, and they are a problem. A problem that must be dealt with.

If one draws any box and says all in it are bad, then they will be wrong. One would have to redraw the box as a very specific tautology to make the previously bigoted statement correct, and tautologies do not advance arguments. Individual cases must be cited, and then totaled.

Conversely, saying "ALL" are not the problem, therefore there is no problem, solves nothing. You cannot say that there is no problem if there is a problem.

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And again, I state, one group does not represent the whole. It's cowardice both to believe and perpetuate the notion that there is no solution to the problem of extremism except segregation and violence. That we can't deprogram people and bring them back into the fold of what real equality means.
Calls for segregation come from both the far-Left and the far-Right, each with similar bigoted reasons. However, I only see the far-Left being taken seriously right now.

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I've acknowledged that they're bad and crazy, they don't disprove anything that I said though.

Academia has its problems, no group is without them. They've gotten worse recently due to the uptick in political friction, but I feel like folks are trying to turn this into a chicken and egg story when in reality the white-supremacist undercurrent and obsession with race-war predates the modern friction.
Yes, there are racist white people. There are also racist black people. Neither side is correct in their bigotry, regardless of historical oppression.

However, if any form of supremacists get their way and no one calls them out, then their bigoted opponent that does call them out will unfortunately gain the support of the rational silent majority (that we all hope exists). Well-meaning people become useful idiots to bigots, both on the Left and the Right. I currently only see that with a rise of black-supremacists... Muslim-supremacists... LGBT-supremacists... stereotypes that white-supremacists warned us about.

The solution is not hate from anyone. The solution is also not capitulation disguised as love.

Listen to some Beatles songs.
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  #10508  
Old 06-17-2017, 11:42 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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I agree, completely, but that's not my point. My point is that we don't adequately label these groups and instead use broad terms that inspires more derision. Claiming all Academia is the problem (as Ruinshin did, either knowingly or unknowingly) just reinforces the wall between groups who know that there are fine lines within the group. Sub-groups that aren't okay with violent protests like Evergreen State or the Virginia shooter.

It should be said that not all Academia accepts this behavior. That a good portion of the larger institutions aren't going to capitulate or just ignore that kind of behavior. I know because I just spent a month right next to the University of Chicago and heard how academics, both professional and student, were completely against it.

Liberal Arts and Community Colleges that cater to certain subgroups will be hotbeds for this kind of behavior, but that's because their student body is self-limiting or limited. But that doesn't mean we should shut them down, that means we need to make sure there's oversight on that community's leadership. That there's adequate controls so that extremist thought isn't allowed to propagate.

And even then, we will always have incidents, because there will always be a subset of any group that self-radicalizes. The Virginia shooter is a perfect example of this. Lone wolves and self-built cells of radicalism will always exist because some segment of society will always be isolated, either by their own or the majority group's preference. Their isolation removes vital perspectives necessary to handle change and maintain long-term health.

Hell, this is my primary fear when it comes to SoL. I've mentioned it time and again, tribalism kills communities. I fucking hate the idea of it, of labeling and walling off groups, of echo chambers where violent reprise is allowed because it's the "others" and not "us." I'd much rather rehabilitate than remove, because at least then we aren't creating a potential future self-radicalized cell.

So yeah, the alt-right and antifa are both problems. That means we, in the relative center, have to work together to identify true radicalism and alter its trajectory as much as possible. Part of that starts by not radicalizing ourselves.
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  #10509  
Old 06-18-2017, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
Yes, there are racist white people. There are also racist black people. Neither side is correct in their bigotry, regardless of historical oppression.



However, if any form of supremacists get their way and no one calls them out, then their bigoted opponent that does call them out will unfortunately gain the support of the rational silent majority (that we all hope exists). Well-meaning people become useful idiots to bigots, both on the Left and the Right. I currently only see that with a rise of black-supremacists... Muslim-supremacists... LGBT-supremacists... stereotypes that white-supremacists warned us about.



The solution is not hate from anyone. The solution is also not capitulation disguised as love.

Listen to some Beatles songs.
1. That's my statement, you're literally telling me the thing I just said and have been saying.


2. The former two have existed for decades, they're nothing new in and of themselves. "LGBT" supremacist though? I have a hard time believing that's a real thing.

My point is white-supremacists and a lack of attention or will among politicians to address very basic concerns from marginalized communities have a hand in creating these "new" forms of extremism from "the left"


3. Where am I hating on anybody...?

I'm honestly boggled half the time. I am saying Evergreen is bad... and people act like i'm not condemning them hard enough. I say white supremacists are bad, and people act like I'm hating on all white people.

This just... makes me feel stumped, I don't know how to have a discussion like that.
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  #10510  
Old 06-18-2017, 01:13 AM
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1. That's my statement, you're literally telling me the thing I just said and have been saying.


2. The former two have existed for decades, they're nothing new in and of themselves. "LGBT" supremacist though? I have a hard time believing that's a real thing.

My point is white-supremacists and a lack of attention or will among politicians to address very basic concerns from marginalized communities have a hand in creating these "new" forms of extremism from "the left"


3. Where am I hating on anybody...?

I'm honestly boggled half the time. I am saying Evergreen is bad... and people act like i'm not condemning them hard enough. I say white supremacists are bad, and people act like I'm hating on all white people.

This just... makes me feel stumped, I don't know how to have a discussion like that.
LGBT supremacists do exist. I think I've heard the term "breeders" used as a derogatory statement against heterosexuals from them. Doesn't mean they're a significant portion of the LGBT community, just that they're out there the same as every other sub-group of humanity.
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  #10511  
Old 06-18-2017, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. That's my statement, you're literally telling me the thing I just said and have been saying.


2. The former two have existed for decades, they're nothing new in and of themselves. "LGBT" supremacist though? I have a hard time believing that's a real thing.

My point is white-supremacists and a lack of attention or will among politicians to address very basic concerns from marginalized communities have a hand in creating these "new" forms of extremism from "the left"


3. Where am I hating on anybody...?

I'm honestly boggled half the time. I am saying Evergreen is bad... and people act like i'm not condemning them hard enough. I say white supremacists are bad, and people act like I'm hating on all white people.

This just... makes me feel stumped, I don't know how to have a discussion like that.
Maybe I agree. I dunno.
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  #10512  
Old 06-18-2017, 02:11 AM
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My point is white-supremacists and a lack of attention or will among politicians to address very basic concerns from marginalized communities have a hand in creating these "new" forms of extremism from "the left"


3. Where am I hating on anybody...?

I'm honestly boggled half the time. I am saying Evergreen is bad... and people act like i'm not condemning them hard enough. I say white supremacists are bad, and people act like I'm hating on all white people.
What concerns havent been addressed that they can address? What concerns arent shared by poor people independent of class?

This is one of the issues I have with the "Well I condemn the evergreen" schtick.

And this is for more than just you. I understand you condemn it, and Im not doubting you. But you also followed it up with an excuse. That some lack of action "pushes" people to do it.

Heres the thing though. It doesnt matter. That other side? The White power supremacists? Theyve got the exact same argument. Somewhere, theres a bone fucking basic complaint that wasnt addressed, and it fueled their radicalization.

This isnt a story about the oppressed fighting so hard theyve become the monster they hate.

Its the story of two groups who largely feel like they have zero social capital, that feel like theyve been sligjted. That probably have been slighted.

It doesnt matter what excuses or reasons either side has.

They are both equal levels of fucked up desperately trying to sieze a semblance of power and control to promote what they feel is right.

And maybe thats the biggest issue of all.

These fucked up people are devided into left or right wing groups then catered too by idealogic assholes on either side, when the majority can fit into one group.

Victim.

Victims of poor education.
Victims of some sort of abuse.
Of poverty.
Of watching friends fall even though they made it.

Nobody just is.
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  #10513  
Old 06-18-2017, 05:54 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Purdue doesn't have these kind of problems because it has a bigger focus on engineering. The president is also very reform minded. When a music professor talked about raping pro-life women he called him out and when some schools were teaching Howard Zinn as historic fact he called it out for what it was, "Ignorant revisionist history." That is probably something many of them haven't heard before.

Along with the other issues with student debt and useless degrees academia has an issue with insularity. They don't feel apart of the community that sustains them and many times feel above it. Some majors exist solely for the purpose of working for academia or the government. I think those are the worst for understanding the world. You don't see vocational schools burning American flags or starting riots. It has to do with a bunch of impressionable people will little experience otherwise being indoctrinated. Not knowing what other people go through or believe in outside hasn't been very helpful to them. Just think of a country like North Korea.

I would love to see a massive restructuring of academia. The federal government needs to protect freedom of speech on these places any means necessary including shifts in funding and sending in the national guard. Research and student aid should be more accountable to the tax payers and voters. The liberal arts and humanities need to be more open and accessible. We need to treat our tradesmen or even just people who learned on the job skills better in the public discourse.
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  #10514  
Old 06-18-2017, 06:26 AM
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And again, I state, one group does not represent the whole. It's cowardice both to believe and perpetuate the notion that there is no solution to the problem of extremism except segregation and violence. That we can't deprogram people and bring them back into the fold of what real equality means.
"Deprogram people". Wow, just wow.
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  #10515  
Old 06-18-2017, 06:41 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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"Deprogram people". Wow, just wow.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:38 AM
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"Deprogram people". Wow, just wow.
FFS PJ asked if people needed to be reconstructed earlier and that's what you nitpick?
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:45 AM
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FFS PJ asked if people needed to be reconstructed earlier and that's what you nitpick?
That was directed at Anansi specifically who talks about taking over the world though. There is established rapport there.
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  #10518  
Old 06-18-2017, 07:48 AM
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Context: One of Dr. Seuss's anti-nazi cartoons


EDIT: I love when people want to convert, and deprogramming falls under that category. It allows people to get ideas out in the open and to smack those ideas against each other.

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  #10519  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:16 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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EDIT: I love when people want to convert, and deprogramming falls under that category. It allows people to get ideas out in the open and to smack those ideas against each other.
This is what the 1st Amendment is supposed to encourage. That is why we should protect people who are being threatened by mobs and vigilantism when they share their ideas even if they are deplorable. The government shouldn't give extra scrutiny to people who have the 'wrong' ideas because what is considered wrong is going to come from the government's perspective. The idea of the government censoring fake news is terrifying because it is going to come from a very narrow minded view of what constitutes fake news.

This is one of the reasons why I don't mind people spending money on persuasion. It allows them to get their ideas out in the open. When Bernie Sanders criticized Verizon the CEO had to make a post on LinkedIn defending himself but it wasn't really readily heard. It isn't like he could preach to a classroom or regularly appears on television to share his perspective so it simply goes unheard.
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  #10520  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:21 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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FFS PJ asked if people needed to be reconstructed earlier and that's what you nitpick?
Hmm, let me see. Wasn't it Cantus who went on how context matters when he started banning words? I am pretty much positive it was. So yes, that is precisely what I nitpick.
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  #10521  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:25 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Hmm, let me see. Wasn't it Cantus who went on how context matters when he started banning words? I am pretty much positive it was. So yes, that is precisely what I nitpick.
At least Grackle got the right of it

Deprogramming is literally the opposite of brainwashing.
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  #10522  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:32 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Deprogramming is literally the opposite of brainwashing.
Like the Chinese re-education camps?

Deprogramming is associated a lot with kidnapping and many times the use of force. It is the kind of brain washing people are trained to resist if they ever become a prisoner of war.
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  #10523  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:34 AM
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At least Grackle got the right of it

Deprogramming is literally the opposite of brainwashing.
You can go and tell that to the thousands of Christian families that had to endure forceful deprogramming in the name of the proletariat. I am pretty sure they will be happy to hear you out.
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  #10524  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:58 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Like the Chinese re-education camps?

Deprogramming is associated a lot with kidnapping and many times the use of force. It is the kind of brain washing people are trained to resist if they ever become a prisoner of war.
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You can go and tell that to the thousands of Christian families that had to endure forceful deprogramming in the name of the proletariat. I am pretty sure they will be happy to hear you out.
You are both confusing deprogramming (Removal of brainwashing) with brainwashing.

EDIT:

Also, why the hell does everyone always want me to defend Russia? I hate russia.
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  #10525  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:58 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
You can go and tell that to the thousands of Christian families that had to endure forceful deprogramming in the name of the proletariat. I am pretty sure they will be happy to hear you out.
I suppose making white people hate themselves and for people to hate capitalism is a benevolent form of brainwashing in some people's eyes. Controlling the flow of information is a tool for despotic regimes to control their people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
You are both confusing deprogramming (Removal of brainwashing) with brainwashing.

EDIT:

Also, why the hell does everyone always want me to defend Russia? I hate russia.
Well if someone considers a supporter of free markets and Christianity brainwashed then they would try to deprogram them. That is what these countries did.

Last edited by PajamaSalad; 06-18-2017 at 09:03 AM..
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