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Old 01-31-2013, 10:19 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Runes A potential solution to the Sylvanas issue

1. After Garrosh is gone the Horde's going to be pretty focused on cleaning house and running a tighter ship to keep things like what he did from happening.

2. It'd be really difficult to bring Sylvanas and the Forsaken into peaceable cohabitation in the Eastern Kingdoms with the Alliance, particularly after killing Greymane's son, and Varians peek at Undercity in Wotlk.

3. When Sylvanas attempted (successfully, temporarily) suicide in her short story, she was in a really nasty shadow realm that seemed vaguely old-god-ish until the Val'kyr plucked her out of it.

4. Sylvanas is central enough to the Forsaken and popular enough with the playerbase to be difficult to outright 'kill off' even if her comeuppance would make sense.

5. The old gods, particularly yoggy and his puzzlebox, have a few things to say about death, here's just a few.


There is no escape. Not in this life, not in the next.

All places, all things have souls. All souls can be devoured.

The void sucks at your soul. It is content to feast slowly.

Yogg-Saron says: A thousand deaths... or one murder.
-Lane/Garona vision stuff-
Yogg-Saron says: Your petty quarrels only make me stronger!
So I got to thinking, what if the 'hell' that Sylvanas went to is a byproduct of the Old Gods, and there's no grand cosmic balance scale that decides who goes where, so much as people not tied to any other powers are 'fair game' for Old Gods when they die? If you have a deity or tie to another force like the Light, Loa, Elune or elemental and nature spirits, then they effectively keep you 'anchored' or protected from going to Old-god-hell.


Now, if Sylvanas were to die at the hands of Greymane, or pretty much anyone after she runs out of Greater Val'kyr, she'd end up back in that hellish shadowrealm... but would she necessarily be powerless there?

Could she potentially ascend to a sort of pseudo godhood where, even while trapped and suffering, she can function as a sort of deity for the Forsaken, slowly growing strong enough to escape?


I think it'd be pretty cool, and in her absence a more subtle government could control the forsaken, leaving them no less the token 'dark' members of the Horde, but no longer as set on expanding down into Stromgarde and the like.

Plus this would make it easier for them to work up rituals, or magic to replace the Val'kyr when they eventually run out. (Or if neither of those work, they can go full Frankenstein)


And it'd give the Forsaken a reason to go after the Old gods, weaken them and help Sylvie get free.


Sylvanas is being 'punished' for murdering people at Southshore and allowing horrific experimentation in her pursuit of going after Arthas, yet she's still a part of the Storyline and the game rather than being 'dead dead'.


Hardly a perfect solution but I'm fond of it.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:27 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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I... don't quite hate it.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:29 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I... don't quite hate it.
That's about the most lukewarm opinion I've ever seen. I'm not sure how to respond.

I just... I really like the theory cause it goes a ways towards explaining why people might follow fallible gods that might not always know best or have their best interests at heart, or are just very distant.

Because if they don't tentacle monsters eat their soul forever.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:29 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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This still leaves the problem of why the Alliance should ever stop fighting the Forsaken after what they've done.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:34 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
That's about the most lukewarm opinion I've ever seen. I'm not sure how to respond.

I just... I really like the theory cause it goes a ways towards explaining why people might follow fallible gods that might not always know best or have their best interests at heart, or are just very distant.

Because if they don't tentacle monsters eat their soul forever.
I might give you something more coherent at a later time.

I mean, on one hand, I'd rather she and the Forsaken just die and rot forever. Or that she and the Forsaken get the draenei treatment forever. Or that the Alliance hates them forever. But we all know that can't happen.

On the other, not totally shafting over Horde players would make things a tad more likely. Though at least I'd root for the Old Gods in this scenario.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:37 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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This still leaves the problem of why the Alliance should ever stop fighting the Forsaken after what they've done.
Because presumably the vast majority of Forsaken by the time she dies are just people they raised, not folks that took part in most of the earlier atrocities.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:48 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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I like it.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:06 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Like Fojar said, Sylvanas's death is not a reason for the Alliance to stop fighting with the Forsaken. Their conflict is not defined by the desire of simple "comeuppance".

As for the "cleaning the house after SoO"... I think it will play out differently. Sylvanas will position herself as one of the main supporters of the anti-Garrosh rebellion. She will really show herself a useful ally there, so much that Thrall will feel indebted to her. After the joint offensive is over and a temporary truce is suggested, the Alliance will try to demand Sylvanas's head or the lands she conquered back, but Thrall will consider it a betrayal of his ally and refuse. The enxt expansion threat starts when the official peace agreement is still in the works...

...Thus leaving us a reason for continued conflict if the writers ever decide to use the faction war thematic again!
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:23 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I actually think that would be pretty interesting.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:28 AM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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sylvanas shall ascend to a loa state, and make boots of hakkar.
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:28 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Reminds me of the Shadow Ascendants from the RPG.
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Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:39 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Unless patch 5.3 has something in store for Sylvannas, I don't see her dying. I think Blizzard will aim for a cop-out (sp?) in which the Horde is reformed and the other leaders finally realise what Sylvannas has been doing and decide to keep her in a tighter leach. She will secretly plot something for future, leaving the plot hanging until Blizzard has a chance to work it into the story of a future expansion.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:01 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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No. Just no.

And now that it's said, I could read your post, Sky.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:18 AM
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Reminds me of the Shadow Ascendants from the RPG.
That's precisely what came to my mind as well.

Could work.
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:15 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Unless patch 5.3 has something in store for Sylvannas, I don't see her dying. I think Blizzard will aim for a cop-out (sp?) in which the Horde is reformed and the other leaders finally realise what Sylvannas has been doing and decide to keep her in a tighter leach. She will secretly plot something for future, leaving the plot hanging until Blizzard has a chance to work it into the story of a future expansion.
Well this isn't really a time sensitive idea, could go into effect anytime she dies.
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:20 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
That's about the most lukewarm opinion I've ever seen. I'm not sure how to respond.

I just... I really like the theory cause it goes a ways towards explaining why people might follow fallible gods that might not always know best or have their best interests at heart, or are just very distant.

Because if they don't tentacle monsters eat their soul forever.
Hey it's Milennia reacting to a Horde centric-idea, it's the equivalent of winning the Pulitzer award from him.

Anyhow I for a while now have been thinking that souls in that void-hell are slowly falling apart. Though I wouldn't necessarily involve the OGs as the reason, imo they just lie about it to make themselves appear more awesome.

It is not a bad idea, and one that could work within the game. I'd be happy with it if it was coupled with the Forsaken becoming more culturally diverse, and their goals and themes more complex.

Also obligatory Lordaeron Peace Act plug.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:51 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post

Also obligatory Lordaeron Peace Act plug.


Interesting. Very interesting, if not without a few flaws.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:33 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Also obligatory Lordaeron Peace Act plug.
Your peace act sucks and is essentially surrender terms dictated by the Horde and involved making Humans second class citizens in their own country under the yoke of the Horde.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthaginian_peace
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Last edited by Fojar; 02-01-2013 at 10:36 AM..
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:37 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Oh, man. Poor Carthage.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:42 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Oh, man. Poor Carthage.
Rome bias
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:55 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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T.T Everyone's hung up on Sylvie and the Forsaken and not the fascinating dimensions of WoW's afterlife and the role the old gods may play in them.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:25 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Interesting. Very interesting, if not without a few flaws.
Glad you like it.

It is probably unfeasible without a major time skip in the lore, which Blizzard is incredibly reluctant to allow, even to the direct detriment of the lore.

Still it does work really well as a long term solution, much better then any land division most advocate, which is an incredibly shortsighted plan given the circumstances. If you read through the rest of the thread you will see I deconstruct those underlying problems in greater detail in later posts.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:50 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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The Alliance would have to be filled with dumbasses to accept that kind of peace especially now that we know how fragile the Forsaken's hold on Lordaeron actually is.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:54 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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The Alliance would have to be filled with dumbasses to accept that kind of peace especially now that we know how fragile the Forsaken's hold on Lordaeron actually is.
The Alliance is already filled with them.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:18 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
T.T Everyone's hung up on Sylvie and the Forsaken and not the fascinating dimensions of WoW's afterlife and the role the old gods may play in them.
For what it's worth, I appreciate the attempt at wiggling out of the mess that is the idea of a hell for people meeting some unknown arbitrary criteria of evil in a setting with multiple confirmed deities and a veritable slew of afterlives. (I think Odok had some kind of similar grand theory of death and the afterlife in the Warcraft setting.)

Items in the ptr have seemingly confirmed the already more or less accepted theory that exceptionally powerful Trolls can transcend death and achieve some semblance of divinity through loahood, and that this differs from the run of the mill ghost. Whether this is something particular to the Trolls' soul, faith or physiology is unclear, but the RPG (I know, I know. Not canon.) did have a similar idea going on with the aforementioned shadow ascendants.

It certainly looks like it could be made to work.
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