Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > Scrolls of Lore > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 07-01-2017, 08:21 PM
Almed Almed is offline

Banished
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 314

Default

They're supposed to be an Alliance. Not a kingdom. Alliances are allowed to do things seperately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
and suddenly make High Elves super important despite them not even being a playable race.
The High Elves were a mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
At the risk of sounding like a human-basher, I'd have to say one of the most bullshit aspects about the game's setting is that you have these strong, powerful races that can pick up and throw horses or smash people with an entire carriage or use trees as if they were 2-hand weapons... and yet the most powerful and noteworthy warrior in the game is a human.

Same applies to magical races, you have some 10k+ y/o races that have studied the arcane for that same amount of time, and yet the only real magical characters that get huge focus are human characters.

Again, I don't want to make this sound like I'm bashing humans, since I think they suffer story issues as well (TOO much character focus, not enough cultural development), but as mentioned before it goes back to Blizzard's favored method of story-telling being on focusing mainly on characters rather than worldbuilding and humans just happen to have the most characters out of all the playable races.
Currently the important Humans are overly Stormwinders or Neutral. Jaina's being set up for Raidbosshood and Greymane's a werewolf so he doesn't count anymore.

Last edited by Almed; 07-01-2017 at 08:31 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 07-01-2017, 09:08 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post

But those were both (over)reactions to fan complaints. Isn't that neat?

TBC being a slaughterhouse for past characters happened thanks to complaints about Vanilla not focusing enough on established characters. The developers got the message, letting the players kill Illidan, Vashj, Kael, Zul'jin, and Kargath with Kil'jaeden as the final boss.

WotLK having Arthas do his ineffectual cartoon villain routine came from complaints about Illidan just standing there menacingly. He did that, until they had to backtrack and address Arthas' newfound screwing up with a silly plan.
The fans didn't ask them to mishandle the characters like that. You have to make the villains menacing.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 07-01-2017, 10:02 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
They're supposed to be an Alliance. Not a kingdom. Alliances are allowed to do things seperately.
To be fair to Jeffrie, the Alliance working together against a common threat wouldn't automatically make it a kingdom. It had its flaws, but 5.1 was the closest thing to having the Alliance work like an alliance of distinct races working together and bringing their distinct specialties to the table.

It was overall decent until the High King scenarios came in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
Currently the important Humans are overly Stormwinders or Neutral. Jaina's being set up for Raidbosshood and Greymane's a werewolf so he doesn't count anymore.
Greymane shouldn't count but the way Worgen have been written have made them humans first and the curse has been diluted so much that they're just a sub-race of humans at most. It wouldn't inherently be a bad thing if they were still allowed to keep all their Gilnean scruples and aesthetics, but even in Legion we see Worgen using more Stormwind assets such as the footman armor and garrison design, and when they're not written like Night Elves they're usually written like Stormwind humans with the same morals and values. Honestly, most of the Worgen stuff is just another reflection of how Blizzard only really knows how to write Human and Night Elf stuff, since they're basically just an extension of those two races rather than being their own unique thing.

Then again when talking to people on other forums about human bias, I am quick to mention that Gilneas should not be put as an example of it, since it's essentially the redheaded stepchild of the human kingdoms that are still around. You know it's bad when I can't even get a solid answer on something as simple as whether or not the national color of Gilneas is still black, because seeing them wear Stormwind colors more often leaves me in complete doubt of that.

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 07-01-2017 at 10:20 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 07-01-2017, 10:11 PM
Almed Almed is offline

Banished
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 314

Default

Stormwind was a mistake.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 07-01-2017, 10:18 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,166

Default

Do you guys remember seeing Gilneas for the first time on-screen, in WC3 "Cry of the Warsong"? It was surreal. We heard about those black-uniformed weirdos in WC2 but had never never seen then.

WC2:ToD: "Gilneas? They're not in the Alliance. And orcs don't have to fight them. So no worries."

WC2:BtDP: "Okay, retcon--Gilneas WAS in the Alliance in ToD. But they're gone now, so forget it. And yeah, the Horde campaign's gonna fight people who left the Alliance like Kul Tiras and Stromgarde, but not Gilneas. So suck it."

WC3:RoC: "Okay, retcon--Gilneas WAS in the Alliance in BtDP. But they're gone now, ha ha ha! Ha ha... aww geeze, don't cry. You want to see a Gilneas? Okay, we'll throw you a Gilneas."

It was nice of them.
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 07-01-2017, 10:27 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

They never added Kul Tiras to WoW did they?
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 07-01-2017, 10:42 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Do you guys remember seeing Gilneas for the first time on-screen, in WC3 "Cry of the Warsong"? It was surreal. We heard about those black-uniformed weirdos in WC2 but had never never seen then.

WC2:ToD: "Gilneas? They're not in the Alliance. And orcs don't have to fight them. So no worries."

WC2:BtDP: "Okay, retcon--Gilneas WAS in the Alliance in ToD. But they're gone now, so forget it. And yeah, the Horde campaign's gonna fight people who left the Alliance like Kul Tiras and Stromgarde, but not Gilneas. So suck it."

WC3:RoC: "Okay, retcon--Gilneas WAS in the Alliance in BtDP. But they're gone now, ha ha ha! Ha ha... aww geeze, don't cry. You want to see a Gilneas? Okay, we'll throw you a Gilneas."

It was nice of them.
Before WC3 and the novels around 2000, there was little lore, both WC1 and WC2 has 2 endings. I don't bother with that.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 07-01-2017, 10:48 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

Elune
Mertico's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,261

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Before WC3 and the novels around 2000, there was little lore, both WC1 and WC2 has 2 endings. I don't bother with that.
Now Baron. You don't need to take this bait.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 07-01-2017, 11:07 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
They never added Kul Tiras to WoW did they?
I wish they did. I always liked Kul Tiras, going as far back as Warcraft 2.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 07-01-2017, 11:37 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,166

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Now Baron. You don't need to take this bait.
But I... I have a giant hook avatar.
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 07-01-2017, 11:42 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
But I... I have a giant hook avatar.
Alleria was the best unit in Warcraft II.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 07-02-2017, 12:16 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,166

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Alleria was the best unit in Warcraft II.
But the juggernaughts... unbeatable... the... nothing makes sense... shutting down...

Rebooting...

Rebooting...

Chronosphere charging...

Tanya Adams. She could use C4 to blow a building BOOM. Just like that. And any infantry coming against her was dead. That's how she saved Einstein, before cruisers came in and shelled the base.

Tanya Adams couldn't take down a cruiser. Good thing they were on the same side.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 07-02-2017 at 12:20 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 07-02-2017, 07:55 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

Elune
Mertico's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,261

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
But I... I have a giant hook avatar.
Fight your base urges.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 07-02-2017, 08:48 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

They should have made Northrend 99% ruled by the Scourge.
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:27 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,959

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
They should have made Northrend 99% ruled by the Scourge.
That would have made the Scourge more threatening, but I'm not sure whether a monochrome Expansion would be received well. We'd be talking about "Scourge fatigue" instead of "orc fatigue".
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:29 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
That would have made the Scourge more threatening, but I'm not sure whether a monochrome Expansion would be received well. We'd be talking about "Scourge fatigue" instead of "orc fatigue".
It surely will.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:35 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Azjol'Nerub should have been a raid dungeon and housed Yogg'saron!

Ulduar should have had a different bad guy.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:46 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

Eternal
Gromak's Avatar
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,989

Default

Ulduar is the greatest raid ever. Nobody is allowed to criticize it.

Azjol-Nerub should've been a whole zone instead.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:49 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Azjol'Nerub should have been a raid dungeon and housed Yogg'saron!

Ulduar should have had a different bad guy.
I think the story should have focused on the Lich King, not other villains.
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:53 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromak View Post
Ulduar is the greatest raid ever. Nobody is allowed to criticize it.

Azjol-Nerub should've been a whole zone instead.
I loved Ulduar too. I got my legendary from it. I think it could have been mostly the same with something like the avatar of Sargeras(since Aegywnn fought him in Northrend) instead of Yogg'Saron. Azjol-Nerub would have just been awesome with a big subterranean spider civilization, scourge stuff, and old god stuff.

Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 07-02-2017, 12:00 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
I loved Ulduar too. I got my legendary from it. I think it could have been mostly the same with something like the avatar of Sargeras(since Aegywnn fought him in Northrend) instead of Yogg'Saron. Azjol-Nerub would have just been awesome with a big subterranean spider civilization, scourge stuff, and old god stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9I3jNzrTx8
You need to FOCUS the story on one villain. Uldar should be connected to the Lich King as well.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 07-02-2017, 12:02 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

Elune
Saranus's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 5,682
BattleTag: DrRobert#1475

Default

People talked shit about Deepholm, but I thought it was really cool from a design perspective (can't remember much of the plot, kill troggs, kill stone giants, kill cultists, rinse, repeat). But it was shiny and had this interesting verticality that I dug. I think I'm part of the minority who thought Vashj'ir and Deepholm were really cool.

I wish that we could have had an Azjol-Nerub that was like 2-3 Deepholms. The existing Azjol-Nerub dungeons had all this extra space and and intriguing stuff in the background that couldn't even be explored. Am I remembering correctly that they had a lot more planned, but had to scrap it for whatever reason?
__________________
Now imagine a music, dear readers, heavy with cellos at a rapid staccato. Cellos held between thighs in a dark room. The little room of Harry's chest as he walks with his teammates to the opening gate of his first Test of Cribbage. They are a rag-tag group of champions, this bunch, and with Harry, the near-perfect new god, they know they will dominate the day. Harry is a world laced with rivers of wizardly blood. He is ready.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 07-02-2017, 12:29 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranus View Post
People talked shit about Deepholm, but I thought it was really cool from a design perspective (can't remember much of the plot, kill troggs, kill stone giants, kill cultists, rinse, repeat). But it was shiny and had this interesting verticality that I dug. I think I'm part of the minority who thought Vashj'ir and Deepholm were really cool.

I wish that we could have had an Azjol-Nerub that was like 2-3 Deepholms. The existing Azjol-Nerub dungeons had all this extra space and and intriguing stuff in the background that couldn't even be explored. Am I remembering correctly that they had a lot more planned, but had to scrap it for whatever reason?
I loved Vashj'ir. It was easily the best part of Cataclysm for me.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 07-02-2017, 12:51 PM
Gromak Gromak is offline

Eternal
Gromak's Avatar
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,989

Default

I really don't get the hate for Vashj'ir and Deepholm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
I loved Ulduar too. I got my legendary from it. I think it could have been mostly the same with something like the avatar of Sargeras(since Aegywnn fought him in Northrend) instead of Yogg'Saron. Azjol-Nerub would have just been awesome with a big subterranean spider civilization, scourge stuff, and old god stuff.
I'm not quite sure if Avatar of Sargeras would've fitted there very well. Ulduar is one of my favourite raids precisely because of Yogg-Saron (I just love all the Old God shit in this game) and how well it's executed. You feel his presence outside of the raid in Grizzly Hills or the Howling Fjord, and then you enter this huge complex and venture deeper and deeper into it to fight this eldritch, otherworldly "thing" that dwells in the bottom of it and for who's imprisonment this entire complex has been build. Gives me Goosebumps just thinking about it.

On Azjol-Nerub we can agree that it was wasted as 2 5-man dungeons.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:04 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromak View Post
I'm not quite sure if Avatar of Sargeras would've fitted there very well. Ulduar is one of my favourite raids precisely because of Yogg-Saron (I just love all the Old God shit in this game) and how well it's executed. You feel his presence outside of the raid in Grizzly Hills or the Howling Fjord, and then you enter this huge complex and venture deeper and deeper into it to fight this eldritch, otherworldly "thing" that dwells in the bottom of it and for who's imprisonment this entire complex has been build. Gives me Goosebumps just thinking about it.

On Azjol-Nerub we can agree that it was wasted as 2 5-man dungeons.
I guess I think Ulduar should have been more titan focused with Sargeras as a fallen titan. All the bosses except the last two could have fundamentally been the same. Ulduar as a prison didn't seem to really do anything to seal Yogg-saron. Algalon could have even been the last boss or something but I think the reason Sargeras was in Northrend could have been explored and we wouldn't have this Burning Legion drought throughout that expansion. Varimathras spoke to his unknown master earlier in the expansion and there was hints of a sort of a Burning Legion Civil War.

Yogg-saron would have been the boss of Azjol'Nerub. I liked the idea of an underground race accidentally digging too far and finding him because they were fleeing from the scourge. Some Nerubians could have even joined him to fight against the Scourge.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lore, red alert, warcraft

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.