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View Poll Results: How Does Sylvanas Windrunner’s story arc end?
Bi-factional takedown, Raid Boss 3 11.54%
Alliance takedown 12 46.15%
Horde takedown 3 11.54%
She takes herself off the Board 13 50.00%
Sylvanas Wins 2 7.69%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26  
Old 09-17-2018, 05:42 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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No decisive battle. No horde side quest to stand up for her. No captures, no trials. No last stands with banshee screams.
A blade in the night. Discreet, dishonorable and deliberately in blatant narrative disregard of her established ability to defend herself against such things.

And not just her. Someone else too, that most everyone likes, just to show that the people who did this aren't just out for revenge. They're out to take it an arguably unnecessary step further, just like she did.
There's a very valuable, very dead orcish prisoner somewhere in a Stormwind stockade, hanging by a noose tied from a living vine that seems out of place in a prison cell unless someone literally made one grow on the spot. The corpse is charred and black. You can still smell the smoke in the air. One the wall, the words "do you like to watch the flames?" are written in dried orcish blood.

They are written in Darnassian.
Pretty brutal, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I do feel like there should be more emotionally scarred characters after Tel’drassil. I’d tell you to stay away from my Saurfang, but there’s some strong narrative in someone being so damaged that they feel the need to murder a prisoner. That said, I don’t think Malfurion or Tyrande would approve. I could be wrong. I should think that Saurfang sparing Malfurion should be common knowledge by now. Still, I doubt someone in this much raw pain cares.

Basically, it’s not what I want to happen, but it’s still really good.

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  #27  
Old 09-17-2018, 06:06 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Honestly, I should have done a better job implying that no one person did all of that. Could've thrown in a collection of inconsistent stab wounds of different depths and striking angles, but that would've probably just come across as needlessly gratuitous to anyone who isn't familiar with a certain relatively-famous English murder mystery.

Well, now I've said it anyhow.
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  #28  
Old 10-29-2018, 12:40 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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In light of recent 8.1 datamining, I wrote this on the SoL discord and will cross-post it to the expac discussion thread

The Horde reminds me of real world politics when utilitarianism is faced with "we must do this at all costs".

I'd say extremist convervatism but despite Sylvanas actually de facto doing it, it isn't her intention to "go back to the old glorious days of Blackhand and Doomhammer".

(that was actually Thrall's big propaganda, a demagogue utilitarian, go figure)

Thing is, the faction isn't unanimously against Sylvanas like it was with Garrosh. And blizzard is aware of that, and making room for sympathizers to fit in.

So how do you solve the conflict of pro-ruthless extremism (Forsaken politics) and pro-utilitarianism (care for our people/honor/nation and fck the war)?

The simple answer (read: the one thats not going to happen) is a tone-down on the ruthless extremism without backing off from the war.

But the pro-utilitarianism group (ie. pro-Saurfang) wants retribution. Retribution for what Sylvanas did to the Horde. She "desecrated" the Horde.

What they want is a rebellion/mak'gora, and while I think a mak'gora is possible, I don't think a rebellion will happen, for meta reasons. Basically Blizzard not delivering a second MoP.

But how could a mak'gora (or similar solution) happen without completely letting the pro-ruthless extremism group down?

Not only that, but many in the pro-ruthless extremism group are devout fans of Sylvanas.

The best solution I can think of ends up being: The Alliance going full-out military juggernaut and taking everything away from Sylvanas.

She's left with 0 val'kyrs. Maybe even used her banshee form in a way that she can't fight anymore.

The only thing she can do is be a political figure. In that moment, Saurfang saves the Horde from annihilation.

No, he doesn't beat the Alliance. The Alliance still wins. The Horde is just saved from being obliterated.

In that very same moment Vol'jin should return as warchief god incarnate and probably also get on track the story plot of solving the mystery of who the fck cursed Vol'jin and named Sylvanas warchief.
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  #29  
Old 10-31-2018, 05:41 AM
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I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't like Saurfang character one bit. I hope Sylvanas rallies the Horde and invades goes for a full-blown invasion of the Alliance lands. Then in the end, if she's killed in combat, so be it. But ideally, I hope she wins.
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  #30  
Old 10-31-2018, 03:37 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't like Saurfang character one bit. I hope Sylvanas rallies the Horde and invades goes for a full-blown invasion of the Alliance lands. Then in the end, if she's killed in combat, so be it. But ideally, I hope she wins.
You can probably find kindred spirits over on the Story Forums.

Neither side will be allowed total victory. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a Siege of Stormwind in patch 8.3.
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  #31  
Old 01-15-2019, 09:48 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by Brammer View Post
I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't like Saurfang character one bit. I hope Sylvanas rallies the Horde and invades goes for a full-blown invasion of the Alliance lands. Then in the end, if she's killed in combat, so be it. But ideally, I hope she wins.
I've never really been a fan of Saurfang. He always feels like a really contrived character and his personality doesn't appeal to me.

I'm down for Sylvanas just winning. Not being redeemed, not being defeated, just keeping hold of the Horde and putting down the Saurfang rebellion. Probably with Saurfang, Baine, and others going into hiding.

But I doubt Blizzard'll do that, so many people would throw a fit. But it'd be way more interesting.
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  #32  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:10 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I've never really been a fan of Saurfang. He always feels like a really contrived character and his personality doesn't appeal to me.

I'm down for Sylvanas just winning. Not being redeemed, not being defeated, just keeping hold of the Horde and putting down the Saurfang rebellion. Probably with Saurfang, Baine, and others going into hiding.

But I doubt Blizzard'll do that, so many people would throw a fit. But it'd be way more interesting.
Depressing.

I'm tired of the Horde sucking at not being genocidal monsters.

I'm tired of the narrative making it out that this is all they can be, that they fail to even try to not be everything the Alliance fears them to be.

It all just spits on so much of the earlier narrative.
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  #33  
Old 01-16-2019, 04:59 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Because of how aggressively the void reacts to her, and because the void is the biggest of the big baddies in Warcraft's universe, I'm sure she'll get away relatively scot free (maybe imprisoned, maybe redeemed altogether) so that she can play her part when it's time to take on the void lords.

But Sylvanas has been no fun since WotLK, her arc ended with Arthas (or should have at least). She should've died when she jumped off of Icecrown.
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  #34  
Old 01-16-2019, 01:47 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Depressing.

I'm tired of the Horde sucking at not being genocidal monsters.

I'm tired of the narrative making it out that this is all they can be, that they fail to even try to not be everything the Alliance fears them to be.

It all just spits on so much of the earlier narrative.
I mean they'd basically split the faction between the monsters who've always been genocidal monsters and the rest of the Horde.

I'm not a huge fan of how we got here, but I'm pretty okay with bad people getting away with evil crap in a Blizzard game. That's what's always made their narratives unique.

Quote:
But Sylvanas has been no fun since WotLK, her arc ended with Arthas (or should have at least). She should've died when she jumped off of Icecrown.
Eh, Sylvanas was a cardboard cutout of all the other racial leaders in WotLK pretty much. It wasn't until Cataclysm they really gave her a sense of characterisation.
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  #35  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:31 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I mean they'd basically split the faction between the monsters who've always been genocidal monsters and the rest of the Horde.

I'm not a huge fan of how we got here, but I'm pretty okay with bad people getting away with evil crap in a Blizzard game. That's what's always made their narratives unique.
Yeah but only because the evil plan was STOPPED and the 'heroes' became corrupted into the new villains, Sylvanas is long overdue for being 'stopped' and the new heroes being corrupted
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  #36  
Old 01-17-2019, 01:03 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Yeah but only because the evil plan was STOPPED and the 'heroes' became corrupted into the new villains, Sylvanas is long overdue for being 'stopped' and the new heroes being corrupted
But like, that's the thing I really take exception to. This is WarCraft. There is no divine/natural karmic retribution here.

The world is indifferent. The heroes and the righteous don't always succeed. I really want them to just go back to that.
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  #37  
Old 01-17-2019, 02:13 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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But like, that's the thing I really take exception to. This is WarCraft. There is no divine/natural karmic retribution here.

The world is indifferent. The heroes and the righteous don't always succeed. I really want them to just go back to that.
I wholly agree with your conclusion, but at the same time, I feel a large portion of the fandom have long formed this opinion that Azeroth is an idealistic and morally driven world, even though I'd say that notion runs contrary to the root of Warcraft. And going by my numerous discussions and debates on the matter, I feel this opinion is something these people are very invested in.
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  #38  
Old 01-18-2019, 01:26 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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But like, that's the thing I really take exception to. This is WarCraft. There is no divine/natural karmic retribution here.

The world is indifferent. The heroes and the righteous don't always succeed. I really want them to just go back to that.
You can't really do the 'bad guy wins' thing in an MMO with the way all the world ending threats are.

And if Sylv 'wins' frankly I'd be frustrated because she's just not that compelling a -villain-.
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  #39  
Old 01-19-2019, 10:21 AM
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I do agree that we are long overdue a "villain wins" moment so iconic to past Blizz titles, but then again this is a new Blizz we are talking about.

But I also agree with Sky that Sylvanas is not that engaging a villain either. I feel she is an annoying mix of inept and proud. I mean by these degraded standards she is a tactical genius in Warcraft of today, but she still makes terrible decisions. Arguably she lost the war when she left Varok "Honour Over Reason" Saurfang to kill Malfurion. And since then she has been on the defensive with a side serving of comic book villainy. Actions like those just do not inspire that sneaky kind of respect you get for well written villains and the shit they pull. Like how you can't help but be impressed by Tywin in Game of Thrones. And that is without analyzing her pre-BFA blunders (flashbacks of powersliding onto Frostmourne)...

So yeah it could be fun but Sylvanas may not be the best villain for the job. My prediction is that she will be ousted as Warchief but remain a relevant force in the story, possibly even beyond the grave as one of our allies in the Shadowlands.
What you could do is write an engaging villain, have them soundly beat us one expansion and then turn the tables on the next. That is the most the worst of the plebs could handle in terms of defeat I feel and it could be good fun if done well.
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  #40  
Old 01-19-2019, 09:35 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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And if Sylv 'wins' frankly I'd be frustrated because she's just not that compelling a -villain-.
I get that, I don't love her, but she's easily the most proactive character in the story. She's the only one who seems to want something and seems to have the drive to achieve it. Everyone else is just reactive.

Even Nathanos, who people HATE is one of the characters with the most personality.
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  #41  
Old 01-19-2019, 09:58 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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You can't really do the 'bad guy wins' thing in an MMO with the way all the world ending threats are.

And if Sylv 'wins' frankly I'd be frustrated because she's just not that compelling a -villain-.
Well, also in an MMO it's hard to determine where the loot's supposed to come from if the player loses. A TFT-style conclusion wouldn't really work in an MMO for whoever happened to be playing as the Illidari.

Though honestly, I feel like a viable resolution could be not for Sylvanas to win or die, but for her to be forced to flee in defeat as her last actions alienate her from even the Forsaken and have to spend several expansions (i.e. years) walking the land in exile, forced to remain incognito and off the grid because she's on the whole world's shit-list as she has to toil in solitude, trying to figure out just where things went wrong.

Like an inverse of Jaina, who's basically spent BfA returning after having turned her back on everyone (which I still think has been bullshit ever since its impetus started back in MoP, but whatever, it's what we're stuck with now), Sylvanas could end BfA being driven out as everyone else turns their backs on her.

So then after all those years of keeping the Forsaken loyal to her by convincing them they were hated and unwanted by the rest of the world, the Forsaken could strengthen their bond with the rest of the Horde while Sylvanas finds herself alone and cast out to live that reality herself.
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  #42  
Old 01-19-2019, 10:03 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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I bet they will make sylvanas the pink haired woman from star wars and Saurfang into the flyboy from the last jedi.

(basically she will kamikaze/allahu ackbar into the alliance and will be right for some reason, then people will ask questions like why the fuck didnt the titans just create azerite ships and then have them fly through lightspeed into the void to destroy the void void walkers or whatever)
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  #43  
Old 01-19-2019, 10:43 PM
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I get that, I don't love her, but she's easily the most proactive character in the story. She's the only one who seems to want something and seems to have the drive to achieve it. Everyone else is just reactive.

Even Nathanos, who people HATE is one of the characters with the most personality.
I don't even know wtf she Wants if she just wanted not to die she could've just made peace and then backstabbed folks later, this is STUPIDLY over the top.
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  #44  
Old 01-19-2019, 11:23 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I don't even know wtf she Wants if she just wanted not to die she could've just made peace and then backstabbed folks later, this is STUPIDLY over the top.
She wants power and control. And she'll kill whoever it takes to get to that point. The more conflict she creates, the more people need to turn to her for help.
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  #45  
Old Yesterday, 09:19 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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She wants power and control. And she'll kill whoever it takes to get to that point. The more conflict she creates, the more people need to turn to her for help.
But why though? She never seemed to give a shit about 'being in charge' even after Arthas died, except as it related to her having a 'bulwark against the infinite'.
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  #46  
Old Yesterday, 12:44 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Power and control isn't just being in charge. It's also being able to shape your future without others being in the way. Sylvanas fears death, so her ultimate goal seems to be the death of everyone who isn't Forsaken as proof against her own.

As Banshee Queen she was previously able to plot toward that end covertly, with the Horde protecting her and the Forsaken against their enemies while being unaware that once said enemies were crushed, the living Horde would probably become the next potential threat in need of elimination to secure her own survival.

Hence her not really wanting to be Warchief. Having such a high profile role forces her to formulate her plans under scrutiny instead of just scheming and stockpiling plagues in secret until the day comes that she can take everyone down all at once. Unfortunately, with the Horde embattled by the Legion's assaults at the time, she wasn't really in a position to refuse the job when Vol'jin appointed her.

She wants the power to eliminate those who threaten her or who might someday threaten her - i.e. enemies of the Horde and, once they're destroyed, the rest of the Horde itself - but being put in charge of the entire faction was foisted on her and doesn't necessarily fit into her long-term plans because it's increasingly showing her allies just what sort of monster they've been harboring all these years.

When Saurfang, Baine, Valtois, etc. witness acts like the burning of Teldrassil or the torment and the brainwashing of Derek, it's not just being atrocities that would set off the other Horde leaders. It's the concern that she's not only willing to do such things, but her personality and behavior very much suggest that she wouldn't balk at also doing those sorts of things to any one of them or their people if she decides it's expedient. Their disgust isn't just ideological morality or something; they have experience with leaders who drive their people to monstrous extremes, so they're all too familiar with the likelihood that it's only a matter of time before the brutality and horror are turned against their own. As Sylvanas' methods become more and more monstrous, it raises the spectre of things like Gul'dan bringing the blood of Mannoroth to the orcs and turning them against objectors like Durotan, Garrosh bleeding the races dry to fuel his war machine, and Elisande having her followers increasingly abuse the populace of Suramar before unleashing her Legion allies upon them when they began to resist.

The Horde - and the Forsaken - have had a snake in their midst plotting their eventual destruction since WoW began, and only now that she's been forced to operate out in the open are they finally just starting to realizing it.

At least, that's how it seems to me. Whether they actually follow through remains to be seen; this being WoW, they could always decide to retcon everything into Sylvanas having some benevolent intent that she makes look bad with her "pragmatic" way of doing things. Though that'd require them basically undoing the past 14 years of characterization, including multiple novels and short stories that let us into her head to see how she thinks.

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  #47  
Old Yesterday, 07:33 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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The Horde - and the Forsaken - have had a snake in their midst plotting their eventual destruction since WoW began, and only now that she's been forced to operate out in the open are they finally just starting to realizing it.
You do realize the Forsaken's whole identity revolves around Sylvanas right?

If there's a snake in the Horde, its Gallywix and Baine. Both those leaders have never been anything but a bane to the Horde. Gallywix enslaves his own people, Baine lets his people be slaughtered and exiles their defenders.
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  #48  
Old Yesterday, 08:27 PM
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You do realize the Forsaken's whole identity revolves around Sylvanas right?

If there's a snake in the Horde, its Gallywix and Baine. Both those leaders have never been anything but a bane to the Horde. Gallywix enslaves his own people, Baine lets his people be slaughtered and exiles their defenders.
Encouraging retribution wasn't a clear-cut option, specifically because Garrosh was Warchief. Doing so would in effect have easily come across as an open endorsement of Hellscream's desire for war with the Alliance. Which would have only worsened one of the major factors driving the wedge between Garrosh and the other racial leaders. Namely, his willingness to throw away the lives of their peoples willy-nilly as long as it meant spilling Alliance blood.

They had a warmonger in charge. Every overt action taken would reflect on the degree to which they supported the actions of that warmonger. Meaning that endorsing retaliatory action risked implicitly committing the tauren even more fully to Garrosh's lust for war and inviting the expectation of truckloads more tauren dying in Garrosh's name than already had.

But yeah, sure, obviously he's an Alliance spy or something because he balked at the idea of basically gifting Garrosh the means to feed even more of his people into the meat grinder.

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  #49  
Old Yesterday, 09:46 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Encouraging retribution wasn't a clear-cut option, specifically because Garrosh was Warchief. Doing so would in effect have easily come across as an open endorsement of Hellscream's desire for war with the Alliance. Which would have only worsened one of the major factors driving the wedge between Garrosh and the other racial leaders. Namely, his willingness to throw away the lives of their peoples willy-nilly as long as it meant spilling Alliance blood.

They had a warmonger in charge. Every overt action taken would reflect on the degree to which they supported the actions of that warmonger. Meaning that endorsing retaliatory action risked implicitly committing the tauren even more fully to Garrosh's lust for war and inviting the expectation of truckloads more tauren dying in Garrosh's name than already had.

But yeah, sure, obviously he's an Alliance spy or something because he balked at the idea of basically gifting Garrosh the means to feed even more of his people into the meat grinder.
They were literally defending Mulgore against an invading army.

The siege machinery outside the gates of Mulgore is like a spear aimed at our heart. I want you to go to the gates, south of here, and remove those siege vehicles from play.

The Alliance scorches a trail of murder across the Barrens. We must stop them here or there is nothing left for us.


All quests from the tauren Baine exiled. Jorn Skyseer was even one of the people who helped Baine in the Shattering, yet it didn't stop Baine from exiling him for protecting tauren.

So the tauren should just accept their deaths according to you.

EDIT: And the part about the tauren deaths being due to Garrosh is entirely untrue. The Dwarves of Bael Modern have been murdering Tauren for years and even their own journal says their fortress was built for the sake of attacking the Horde.
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