Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > World of WarCraft Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 11-30-2018, 06:21 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,197

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
The decision to cut the high elves came way before the introduction of the faction system, though. Staats stresses that Blizzard was pushed to the ends of their limits with World of Warcraft (apparently, the development nearly tore the company apart, and many were left burned out), and with resources scarce, the last thing they wanted to do was to do two very similar races at once.

The high elves were the first to be cut from the original pool of ten races (humans, high elves, dwarves, orcs, tauren, night elves, goblin, naga, undead, demons). Then came the demons and the naga, both because the workload to make them work animation/model/item wise was thrice the other races. Then finally the goblins, mostly because the team wanted them to be very scifi/steampunk, yet felt all these assets could not be really utilized elsewhere. The producers also wanted to cut the undead at one point to save resources, but the rest of the team blocked that.
Sure, but blood elves could have been introduced later much like some of the other cut races listed. In fact, without a faction system, they could have cut back their workload even more since there would be less need to work around faction-based symmetry. Less work making redundant quest chains. Less work having design more zones per faction.

I also can't help but get the feeling from all this background info that some of the designers have poor tastes and give zero shits about lore, story, or game immersion. It's mostly "rool of kool" with unironic misspellings.

Quote:
I agree, but the diary makes a point that Blizzard believes that the faction system, while not lore friendly, made for a better and more successful game, and I am not sure if they are wrong on that (though impossible to say definitely).
I am not discounting that WoW is a vastly more popular game and two faction tribalism may have contributed to that success when I say this, but I do think that GW2 has made for a more enjoyable game for my preferences. And that lack of a faction system contributes greatly to those ends. I am never faced with the prospect of wondering whether I can play with my friends based upon the race of my character. And I can play any race-class combination as well. The community itself is considerably less hostile and toxic, and the usual faction-based arguments/whining encountered here or in the story forums are completely absent in the GW2 community. As I enjoy community-engagement/discussion as part of my gaming experience, that leads to a generally more pleasant environment. And while WoW would not be the game that it is today without that faction system, on the flip side, it would not be the game that it is today. So I definitely wonder how this game (and its communtiy) could and would have developed without this need for a faction-based game structure and metaplot.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 11-30-2018, 09:36 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

Chimaera
Cacofonix's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 251

Default

Funny enough, now the Naga are the only among canned from Vanilla Races to not be playable... yet.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 11-30-2018, 10:10 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,303
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Sure, but blood elves could have been introduced later much like some of the other cut races listed. In fact, without a faction system, they could have cut back their workload even more since there would be less need to work around faction-based symmetry. Less work making redundant quest chains. Less work having design more zones per faction.

I also can't help but get the feeling from all this background info that some of the designers have poor tastes and give zero shits about lore, story, or game immersion. It's mostly "rool of kool" with unironic misspellings.

I am not discounting that WoW is a vastly more popular game and two faction tribalism may have contributed to that success when I say this, but I do think that GW2 has made for a more enjoyable game for my preferences. And that lack of a faction system contributes greatly to those ends. I am never faced with the prospect of wondering whether I can play with my friends based upon the race of my character. And I can play any race-class combination as well. The community itself is considerably less hostile and toxic, and the usual faction-based arguments/whining encountered here or in the story forums are completely absent in the GW2 community. As I enjoy community-engagement/discussion as part of my gaming experience, that leads to a generally more pleasant environment. And while WoW would not be the game that it is today without that faction system, on the flip side, it would not be the game that it is today. So I definitely wonder how this game (and its communtiy) could and would have developed without this need for a faction-based game structure and metaplot.
IMO WoW without the faction system would have the very same appeal (and possibly fate) of LineAge.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 12-01-2018, 04:38 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

Arch-Druid
Deicide's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,087

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
IMO WoW without the faction system would have the very same appeal (and possibly fate) of LineAge.
Conflict is good. I think the factions are good for the game, even if people don't feel it. Without them, it would be just the "evil of the week" each expansion.

Sure, the faction conflict could be handled better. And a factionless world can be done good if there are constant conflict between the races (alliances chancing, wars and so), for instance. But both would require Blizzard to up their storytelling, and the faction conflict is easier to do than the later option.
__________________
- Sorry for any typos; english's not my primary language.

- A better signature coming soon(ish).
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 12-03-2018, 08:36 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

Elune
C9H20's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 12,081

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Funny enough, now the Naga are the only among canned from Vanilla Races to not be playable... yet.
I bet they will be the first "heroic" race. One of the few non-humanoid races added into the game because of immense popularity and demand. They will be neutral so Blizz can get the most mileage out of a race they have to specially design armor for each time.

Other candidates include demons (probably dreadlords or doomguard), centaur, nerubians (possibly undead ones) and so on.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:54 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

Eternal
Ujimasa Hojo's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Philippines
Posts: 4,168

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I bet they will be the first "heroic" race. One of the few non-humanoid races added into the game because of immense popularity and demand. They will be neutral so Blizz can get the most mileage out of a race they have to specially design armor for each time.

Other candidates include demons (probably dreadlords or doomguard), centaur, nerubians (possibly undead ones) and so on.
Players: We want High Elves and Ethereals!
Blizzard: Here's your Void Elves.

Players: We want Naga!
Blizzard: Here's your 2-legged NotNaga.
__________________




Watch my Warcraft 3 stuff in either YouTube, BitChute, DailyMotion, or DTube.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 12-07-2018, 03:49 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

Arch-Druid
Deicide's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,087

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ujimasa Hojo View Post
Players: We want High Elves and Ethereals!
Blizzard: Here's your Void Elves.

Players: We want Naga!
Blizzard: Here's your 2-legged NotNaga.
Unless they are Horde, then they will be the naga everyone knows and love. And Alliance will complain about Horde bias. And Horde will complain that they got a race without proper feet gear, with clipping cloak and with some messy jumping animation.
__________________
- Sorry for any typos; english's not my primary language.

- A better signature coming soon(ish).
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 12-11-2018, 02:47 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,840

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Unless they are Horde, then they will be the naga everyone knows and love. And Alliance will complain about Horde bias. And Horde will complain that they got a race without proper feet gear, with clipping cloak and with some messy jumping animation.
Just as usual. People who picked the plain and generic faction would complain that the more distinct yet broken faction gets more distinct, broken races, all the while clamoring for more generic and plain races as well.

The faction system has really been a grave mistake, not only is the game itself schizophrenic, even the playerbase at large is.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:58 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,303
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

Do we know anything about their inspirations and conceptual references during Wrath development?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 12-15-2018, 12:09 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,988

Default

Quote:
According to Christian teachings, Jesus's death was orchestrated by his own father and he came back 3 days after his death, and yet, this event was used to justify centuries of anti-Semitism.

Cenarius eventually came back too, but the desecration of ones deities is not easily forgiven nor forgotten. The night elves were willing to work with the orcs at Hyjal because there was no other way to save Azeroth, but were they willing to forgive them? I would hope not, or they truly would have been neutered.
But the Night Elves don't subscribe to piety, and they're not monotheistic. They also associated the Humans and Orcs together, Tyrande makes no distinction between them whatsoever (and she's the only one perpetuating the conflict, Malfurion wanted to pursue peace with them).

It's ALSO portrayed that Cenarius's death is just an excuse for Tyrande, and that her resistance to side with them is rooted more in pride and her resentment for Furion rather than any actual outrage. I think that's pretty strongly in the subtext of the story.

The Night Elves joining the Alliance has always been super underdeveloped and has never really made sense. They also were constantly getting shoe horned into conflicts where they really had no stakes. Outland, Northrend, even Pandaria. The only times they've ever been a sort of natural fit were in Cataclysm, Legion (where I think they were actually pretty underrepresented at least as far as leadership goes) and now Battle for Azeroth (where they've been given their own space and sort of been drawn into the conflict).

The Forsaken were always rather obviously built from the ground up to join the Horde and while I think that ALSO was rather underdeveloped and has been kind of all over the place, it feels more fitting to me than the Night Elves in the Alliance. Especially since there is internal conflict, like the Wrath Gate or the Gilnean campaign that shows there's a clear divide between the Forsaken leadership (Sylvanas) and the Horde (Garrosh at the time, but Thrall and Vol'jin as well).

We have never seen ANYTHING like that with the Night Elves until *Battle for Azeroth*. The seventh expansion.

They really just even needed some short stories on the website or some questlines in the game that dealt with how the Night Elves not just battling the Horde but joining the Alliance even came about. When did Stormwind and Ironforge come back into focus?

And they're not even really long stories.

The Forsaken are the catalysts for everything.

-Arthas rises as the Lich King and begins to expand his power three years after TFT. Kel'thuzad leads an army of Scourge to the Plaguelands and begins taking over the region.

-Deeply concerned that they'll lose the war, Sylvanas sends emissaries to the Horde asking for help. The Horde isn't sure if they can or should trust the Forsaken, and Jaina & Theramore make it clear that they cannot abide them doing so.

-Pressured by the other Orc chieftains to accept the Forsaken's offer (partly just to have an alliance with a powerful faction in the east), Stormwind (King Wrynn) and Jaina are outraged.

-Thrall is at the same time pressured by the chieftains to begin expanding infrastructure and building up new facilities through out the Barrens. This means they need lumber, so Thrall asks the Night Elves for help.

-Tyrande wants to help Thrall, given the Battle of Mount Hyjal but the new Archdruid (Fandral) is unwilling to budge and claims the forests are sacred. Tyrande has already given Thrall her word, but the Warsong Clan is overstepping it's bounds in harvesting the forest. Which leads to tension.

-Concerned about the growing influence of the Horde, Fandral Staghelm approaches Jaina Proudmoore and proposes an alliance between the two. Staghelm is far more militant and is inclined to snuff out the Horde should they prove troublesome.

Even something that simple sets up all the major players, explains the change in the factions. (New Archdruid is inclined to join forces with the Alliance out of concern with the Horde and is less of a peacekeeper than Furion.) And it creates an impetus for the Forsaken & Night Elves to join in the faction conflict.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 12-15-2018, 01:39 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

Loremaster
ARM3481's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,497

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
The Night Elves joining the Alliance has always been super underdeveloped and has never really made sense. They also were constantly getting shoe horned into conflicts where they really had no stakes. Outland, Northrend, even Pandaria. The only times they've ever been a sort of natural fit were in Cataclysm, Legion (where I think they were actually pretty underrepresented at least as far as leadership goes) and now Battle for Azeroth (where they've been given their own space and sort of been drawn into the conflict).
Honestly that's in no small part because their historical primary antagonist was taken away from them and given to the draenei instead. We had two entire expansions revolving around fighting the Burning Legion, and the night elves as a force - aside from the neutral druids so both factions can share questgivers - spent both expansions not really shown fighting the Burning Legion.

Putting them in the Alliance doomed them to the fate of being irrelevant until it was time for a faction war. Which is frankly sad and pathetic; they were introduced as their own prominent facet of WarCraft's since ever-growing history and meta story, only for WoW to demote them to a slot in the Alliance's tech tree, and the story has struggled (largely unsuccessfully) to mitigate that damage to their portrayal ever since.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 12-15-2018, 02:51 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,802

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
But the Night Elves don't subscribe to piety, and they're not monotheistic.
It's not a perfect example, but I still think it is valid.

The slaughter of a deity does not become less meaningful if a society is polytheistic instead of monotheistic. Deities are not simply spares that can be discarded and replaced. Especially not if it happens to be one of the main deities, the child of Elune (another mayor deity) and central figure in night elf druidism. Tyrande is the High Priestess of his mother; if Cenarius has a priesthood, Malfurion would be its leader. In fact, he is exactly that. WOW might not always make it clear, but druidism and shamanism are alternate ways of worship, religions in their own right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
They also associated the Humans and Orcs together, Tyrande makes no distinction between them whatsoever (and she's the only one perpetuating the conflict, Malfurion wanted to pursue peace with them).
Yes, but that was when humans and orcs were allied and she considered the orcs to be no better than the demons.

It is unlikely that she would not change her opinion on humans and still paint them with the same brush as orcs, once she was made aware that the humans had only allied with the orcs out of necessity, to drive back the Burning Legion, just like she eventually did.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 12-15-2018, 04:53 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

Arch-Druid
Jon Targaryen's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,397

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Honestly that's in no small part because their historical primary antagonist was taken away from them and given to the draenei instead.
I wonder if they could have kept the Draenei without reducing the Legion-Night elf antagonism. Some kind of closer partnership between them (sort of like the Blood elf/Forsaken relationship). Or did the introduction of the Draenei inevitably have the effect you described?
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 12-15-2018, 10:14 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,840

Default

The issues with the Night Elves run deeper than their placement on the Alliance and further developments. They start with how the race was conceived and presented in Warcraft III. It's something both me and Genesis have on occasion adressed.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 12-15-2018, 10:19 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

Loremaster
ARM3481's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,497

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Targaryen View Post
I wonder if they could have kept the Draenei without reducing the Legion-Night elf antagonism. Some kind of closer partnership between them (sort of like the Blood elf/Forsaken relationship). Or did the introduction of the Draenei inevitably have the effect you described?
The thing is, between the draenei and WotA novels, they made the night elves' relationship with the Legion increasingly less personal. Velen had Kil'jaeden and Archimonde as enemies while the eredar are the dark antithesis of the draenei as a whole, making the Burning Legion a personal and thematic antagonist to the draenei and their central protagonist. Meanwhile the personal and thematic antagonists of the night elves - Xavius to Malfurion, Azshara to Tyrande and the satyr to kaldorei as a whole - have since been foisted over to the Old Gods instead.

Which turned the Legion retroactively into less of a proper personal foe of the night elves and more like just a big disaster that happened to them because of the Old Gods. The night elves were the first race to be on the "protect Azeroth" train, but their subsequent detachment from the very conflict that made them relevant in the first place led to them becoming a mere appendage to the "beat up the other faction" train. So their one non-druid appearance in Legion was less about fighting the Legion and more about needing an Alliance counterpoint to the blood elves.

Followed by the culmination of Legion, wherein the night elves should have had as much reason as anyone to be invading Argus in force and putting their ancient enemy down once and for all, but instead we had just draenei, draenei, and more draenei. They - and with them the Alliance and Horde - had been so divorced from the Legion that instead of the draenei of Azeroth being accompanied by their own racial allies from Azeroth to end the threat to Azeroth, when the time came to finally cap the whole thing the story just kept pulling new factions of draenei out of nowhere to help on Argus instead.

So honestly, I'm afraid it's an overlapping consequence of not only the draenei, but the way the Old Gods have been utilized and the way the factions as a whole have been similarly segregated from the Legion narrative.

In that way it almost feels irksome how the whole Velen/Illidan plot ended up boiling down to there being no such thing as fate. By itself that's not a bad thing, but from the way it was handled, it ended up feeling like an excuse. After the Army of the Light had been hinted and predicted since TBC as this vast army of the Legion's many foes from Azeroth and beyond eventually rising to challenge its might, when the time finally came they opted out because WoW is a bad mechanism for something so large and varied, and it felt an awful lot like the "no such thing as fate" was a convenient handwave to explain why such a massive concept involving so many themes and ideas finally culminating in the summary conflict with their shared ultimate foe ended up sputtering and turning out to just be more draenei, more naaru, one human, one elf and one demon.

Last edited by ARM3481; 12-15-2018 at 11:26 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 12-16-2018, 03:46 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,988

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
The slaughter of a deity does not become less meaningful if a society is polytheistic instead of monotheistic. Deities are not simply spares that can be discarded and replaced. Especially not if it happens to be one of the main deities, the child of Elune (another mayor deity) and central figure in night elf druidism. Tyrande is the High Priestess of his mother; if Cenarius has a priesthood, Malfurion would be its leader. In fact, he is exactly that. WOW might not always make it clear, but druidism and shamanism are alternate ways of worship, religions in their own right.
What I meant more is Elune isn't portrayed as omnipitent or all-good. She's implied to be a powerful force of nature that exists within the world. Who is much more specific in her domain, like the Troll loa. It's only more recent storylines that I think have tried to make her more like the Judaeo-christian god.

Granted she was rather vague as an entity before. But there was generally a sense that Elune was exclusive to the Sisterhood and the Sentinels (and the Watchers by extension I guess). The Druids make no reference to her in WC3 and Furion even calls her "[Tyrande's] goddess".

And yeah, Furion would be angry about Cenarius's death, but Furion is probably the most rational, far-sighted character in the franchise as a whole. So I dunno if that really holds up regardless.

Quote:
It is unlikely that she would not change her opinion on humans and still paint them with the same brush as orcs, once she was made aware that the humans had only allied with the orcs out of necessity, to drive back the Burning Legion, just like she eventually did.
I don't think so. I mean Thrall had as much to do with killing Cenarius as Jaina did really. Plus there's a huge narrative divide between Grom and the Warsong Clan killing Cenarius and the current conflict. Often I find a lot of these points assume these characters are irrational or stupid, like Tyrande can't understand that Thrall had nothing to do with killing Cenarius when she would easily be able to understand that.

And they would kind of cheapen the whole Battle of Mount Hyjal thing if the impetus for them returning to conflict is something that happened BEFORE the big rah-rah 'everyone team up to defeat the ultimate evil' event.

Maybe it's realistic, but it's a weak narrative. It's got to be new forces, new threats that drive people apart. Or if it's old conflicts, something has to set that off rather than "sure you helped us destroy our most hated enemy... but damnit someone who was once associated with you killed our demigod". Especially with Tyrande, who ostensibly is a very loyal character.

Which is why I think Fandral makes a lot of sense. A militant leader who lacks Tyrande's loyal spirit and who is newly introduced.

Also just because the Night Elves go to war with the Horde (over Cenarius or whatever) doesn't mean that they'd automatically join forces with the Alliance. There needs to be some more emotional investment in it than that. Which just has never been there... until Battle for Azeroth.

Even generally speaking, most Night Elf storytelling has either been through neutral factions (Defenders of Hyjal, Cenarion Circle & Expedition) or has just been neutral content involving Tyrande (Eranikus quest line, Val'sharrah and even Suramar).
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 12-16-2018, 05:08 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,802

Default

I did not mean to imply that the night elves should rekindle their brief war against the Horde. Merely that, while neither the Horde nor the Alliance are perfect partners for the night elves, I would say that (being forced to pick sides), the Alliance would have been the far likelier choice.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 12-16-2018, 06:57 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,840

Default

It sort of depends which version is one talking about. The early Alpha night elves? More fitting for the Horde. The Reign of Chaos night elves? About fifty to fifty, each for their own different reasons. The Frozen Throne night elves? More fitting for the Alliance.

Last edited by Marthen; 12-16-2018 at 10:28 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 12-16-2018, 08:35 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

Arch-Druid
Deicide's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,087

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
It sort of depends which version is one talking about. the early Alpha night elves? More fitting for the Horde. The Reign of Chaos night elves? About fifty to fifty, each for their own different reasons. The Frozen Throne night elves? More fitting for the Alliance.
I agree.

The night elves joining the Alliance can make sense in-universe, it was just badly explained. One day they were their own thing, the other they were in the Alliance (the RPG was the first source to put them in the faction, some time before WoW).

But they could have gone to the Horde just as easily. All it required was some story.

When I say the night elves would be better in the Horde than in the Alliance, is more due to how much damage the canon setup ended up creating in the lore.

The night elves were put in the Alliance, and then defanged and reduced to "almost high elves". This also made the high elves unlikely to be playable and pushed the blood elves to the Horde in order to give it a "pretty race" and balance the elves between factions.

Night elves could have give variety and a "pretty race" to the Horde early one, while keeping them more "primal" because they'd be interacting with other "savage" races. If added in the place of the Forsaken, it would also prevent most of the "repeatedly evil" storylines you have with the Horde. It could also be used to justify conflict with the Alliance, as a race of druidic nature could give other Horde races options to industrialization while being distrustful of the very industrial dwarves or magic-oriented blood/high elves of the Alliance.

So, in short, I think the game would have benefited a lot more of night elves being a Horde race, and it wouldn't be hard to justify it. But it's an "what if" discussion, we can't go back and change it now.
__________________
- Sorry for any typos; english's not my primary language.

- A better signature coming soon(ish).
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 12-16-2018, 10:00 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,802

Night Elf Icon (War3)

As fun as it no doubt is to speculate about the early Alpha Kaldorei and their place in the world, I prefer to focus on the night elves we actually did get. There are just too many variables when it comes to the Alpha Kaldorei. While it is true that, based on what I know about them, they would culturally have fit the Horde more than the Alliance, I do not know whether we would have gotten the same story had they been a part of it. Perhaps these cultural similarities would simply have led to them opposing the Horde even more savagely. Anything is possible really. Many times cultures that would seem to be perfect natural allies are the most bitter enemies.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Regarding RoC and TFT elves, it is possible that they could have fit in well with the Horde. However, as you yourself said, Deicide, that would have required work. Work Blizzard did not put into explaining why they were suddenly Alliance members, so I am doubtful that they would have put it into explaining the reason behind Horde night elves. Out of the two possible options, with no explanation given, I would have to go with the Alliance.

Coming to the benefits of being placed in the Horde (with the savage races) instead of the Alliance, I think that claiming that it would have led to a more genuine portrayal of the night elves is a highly speculative statement. It is certainly possible that they would have received more attention and love in the Horde than they did in the Alliance. It is also possible that they would have received none. Perhaps they would have avoid being de-fanged. Perhaps they would have traded this issue with far more glaring ones. What I do believe we can safely say is that, whether on the Horde or Alliance, they would have had to give up their nature allies for the sake of faction parity either way.

Anyway, the question of which faction would allowed them to unfurl does not necessarily have the same answer as which faction it made more sense for them to align themselves with lorewise, and in my opinion, this is a question that ought to be answered separately.

In hindsight, looking at them mindless savagery otherwise noble races, like the tauren, have been forced to participate in, I must say that I am glad that the night elves were spared this fate.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 12-16-2018, 01:06 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

Eternal
MisterCrow's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,421

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
As fun as it no doubt is to speculate about the early Alpha Kaldorei and their place in the world, I prefer to focus on the night elves we actually did get. There are just too many variables when it comes to the Alpha Kaldorei. While it is true that, based on what I know about them, they would culturally have fit the Horde more than the Alliance, I do not know whether we would have gotten the same story had they been a part of it. Perhaps these cultural similarities would simply have led to them opposing the Horde even more savagely. Anything is possible really. Many times cultures that would seem to be perfect natural allies are the most bitter enemies.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Regarding RoC and TFT elves, it is possible that they could have fit in well with the Horde. However, as you yourself said, Deicide, that would have required work. Work Blizzard did not put into explaining why they were suddenly Alliance members, so I am doubtful that they would have put it into explaining the reason behind Horde night elves. Out of the two possible options, with no explanation given, I would have to go with the Alliance.

Coming to the benefits of being placed in the Horde (with the savage races) instead of the Alliance, I think that claiming that it would have led to a more genuine portrayal of the night elves is a highly speculative statement. It is certainly possible that they would have received more attention and love in the Horde than they did in the Alliance. It is also possible that they would have received none. Perhaps they would have avoid being de-fanged. Perhaps they would have traded this issue with far more glaring ones. What I do believe we can safely say is that, whether on the Horde or Alliance, they would have had to give up their nature allies for the sake of faction parity either way.

Anyway, the question of which faction would allowed them to unfurl does not necessarily have the same answer as which faction it made more sense for them to align themselves with lorewise, and in my opinion, this is a question that ought to be answered separately.

In hindsight, looking at them mindless savagery otherwise noble races, like the tauren, have been forced to participate in, I must say that I am glad that the night elves were spared this fate.
I'm willing to align with Nazja on this one. Ultimately, there's really a spectrum of different scenarios in play here:

1) The best possible way a savage and nature-oriented faction of night elves could have aligned with the Alliance post-Hyjal
2) The best possible way a savage and nature-oriented faction of night elves could aligned with the Horde post-Hyjal

<--- SPAACE-------->
<--- SPAACE-------->
<--- SPAACE-------->
Blizzard's implementation is in here somewhere
<--- SPAACE-------->
<--- SPAACE-------->

z) the worst possible way a savage and nature-oriented faction of night elves could have aligned with either faction.

As we get more and more of the world of Azeroth revealed over time, the better implementations of things become more evident, and we get closer to the point where the world is a more appropriately fleshed out campaign setting vis a vis Dragon Age or Forgotten Realms. But the difficulty is justifying those better implementations with the actual history that's been written down, and the gameplay decisions that justified that history at one point in time.
__________________
Lore Observation, Systems Design, and other science dropped at Power Word: Remix


Expect nothing and anything will surprise you.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 12-16-2018, 03:26 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,840

Default

I feel this debate is somewhat pointless, as there is no way to get even a objective conclusion. It is impossible to say which way would have been better for the quality of their (as in the Kaldorei's) potrayal, even impossible to correctly predict it, and when it comes to which faction aligment would have worked better lorewise, it all comes down to personal preferences and interests. In other words, the night elves as presented in Reign of Chaos could have worked well with either side, the potential was about the same, and the rest is a matter of what is one personally interested in more.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 12-16-2018, 05:21 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

Eternal
MisterCrow's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,421

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I feel this debate is somewhat pointless, as there is no way to get even a objective conclusion. It is impossible to say which way would have been better for the quality of their (as in the Kaldorei's) potrayal, even impossible to correctly predict it, and when it comes to which faction aligment would have worked better lorewise, it all comes down to personal preferences and interests. In other words, the night elves as presented in Reign of Chaos could have worked well with either side, the potential was about the same, and the rest is a matter of what is one personally interested in more.
If we want to debate the value of the argument itself, I find these types of exchanges interesting because they can form the basis for doing original takes via different what-if scenarios.

When it comes to changing some aspect of the franchise itself, or getting everyone to agree on a particular perspective, yeah, we're probably going to be mostly spinning our wheels.
__________________
Lore Observation, Systems Design, and other science dropped at Power Word: Remix


Expect nothing and anything will surprise you.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 12-16-2018, 10:59 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,988

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
It sort of depends which version is one talking about. The early Alpha night elves? More fitting for the Horde. The Reign of Chaos night elves? About fifty to fifty, each for their own different reasons. The Frozen Throne night elves? More fitting for the Alliance.
Er... is there really that much of a difference?

As much as they have a characterisation, the RoC and tFT Night Elves are pretty well in line with one another. Especially since tFT really focuses on a different faction of Night Elves than RoC does (Watchers vs. Sentinels) and that tFT is a FAR more personal story about the Stormrage twins & Tyrande. (Maiev is mostly just there to sort of drive the narrative -- the story is ultimately about Illidan).

Quote:
I did not mean to imply that the night elves should rekindle their brief war against the Horde. Merely that, while neither the Horde nor the Alliance are perfect partners for the night elves, I would say that (being forced to pick sides), the Alliance would have been the far likelier choice.
Fair enough, I think I was misunderstanding the context.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 12-16-2018, 11:34 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,802

Night Elf Icon (War3)

Some people are of the belief that RoC night elves had no civilian population and that its addition in TFT was a retcon. I might be mistaken, but I think that could be what Marthen is referring to.

Last edited by Nazja; 12-16-2018 at 11:37 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.