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Old 04-13-2017, 02:13 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Oil Militaristic, Seafaring



I hereby release the other lore threads from my nautical cancer! This is a thread for naval warfare, ship technology, and seafaring culture in general.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
And only today I learned that one of the earliest "shipyards" appearing in WoW was Ironclad Cove. Strange name. Where have I used the term ironclad before, when talking about my headcanons?

Right, juggernaughts. And that's exactly what's there. Guess someone in Blizzard shared my impressions.

EDIT: Yes I know goblins built it. Don't care. Ironclad!
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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Well, when were juggernaughts not ironclad (the era when they were not canon technically nothwithstanding)?
Well, it was never literally spelled out in the old days. The WC2 manual uses the phrases "heavily armed and armored" and "veritable floating fortresses", but someone could interpret that more like a galleon if they wanted to. I always felt like my "ironclad" interpretation was headcanon fueled by an interest in the American Civil War.

WC2 ships used oil, but the juggernaught was a sail ship like the others. Only now, as I'm typing this to you, have I realized that WC3 added a smokestack that verifies them as coal/steam powered. It's kind of exciting for me.

In old lore, the Ballista was a symbol of Alliance unity: human design, elven craftsmanship, and dwarven-gnomish firepower. I'm starting to see the juggernaut that way: ogre initial design, goblin firepower and fuel, Blackrock orc engineering to tie them together, and probably Amani craftsmanship somewhere. :p

https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow...ggernaught.JPG

(The WC2 pixels may have had smokestacks, but there was no smoke. I grew up assuming it was just moar cannons.)

https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow...gernautWC2.gif

(And the manual art was full sails.)

https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow...ernaughtW2.JPG

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Wait, was there an era when they were non-canon? They appeared in WC2, WC3 (TFT), the RPG and vanilla WoW.
ToD novel described only large, unarmed transports in the Horde fleet. Because of this, Loreology couldn't even confirm for me that the Defias juggernaut had any connection to Old Horde vessels. Loreology deleted his old tweets, so I can't hunt it down.

Quote:
Current lore (a quest inexplicably added in Legion) has it being stolen from pirates.
Even better! This could be a relic from the old wars - a veritable artifact weapon! You know, just not as powerful as Thas'dorah...

* * * * *
LINE BREAK
AVOIDING DOUBLE POST
* * * * *


So, I'm ready to make peace with Chronicle. For a Warcraft fan, the stages of grieving are anger, depression, bargaining, and finally denial. That denial is called headcanon.

Here is mine, for the battle before Hillsbrad. Pay attention to my boldings.

Quote:
When Proudmoore found the crude Horde ships, it was akin to a wolf crossing paths with an injured lamb. The admiral hailed from the island nation of Kul Tiras, and he'd spent his entire life on the high seas. His experience in maritime warfare had no equal in the world.

Proudmoore's sleek vessels outmaneuvred the Horde fleet even quicker than he'd anticipated. The first Alliance cannon volley blew orcish ships to pieces. Dozens of transports sank, and the churning waves swallowed their crews. Proudmoore soon realized that he could destroy the entire Horde army at sea. He could end the war against the Alliance before it even started.

Perhaps he would have, if not for the arrival of dragons.
Grackle's headcanon follows:

* Juggernauts are harder to destroy than almost any other vessel. By "crude", the text means slow, ugly, and sailing in an amateur formation. The "injured wolf" bit is empty rhetoric.

* Proudmoore wasn't stupid enough to target the imposing juggernauts or the veteran Amani destroyers (the turtles probably weren't tamed this early). Instead he "outmaneuvered" them, meaning...

* He slipped through their formations, using superior sailing speed to avoid juggernaut cannons or boarding attempts, and FOCUSED ALL OF HIS FIRE ON THE TRANSPORTS.

* The first volley "blew orcish ships to pieces" - TRANSPORT ships! Not juggernauts, not Amani ships. Yes, it was very clearly "dozens of transports" that sank. All of his ships concentrated on sinking the transports; the slow juggernauts couldn't catch him, and the lighter Amani couldn't damage enough to make up for it. That's why Proudmoore felt he could destroy the Horde "army" at sea, not its navy.

* This means that after the battle, the Horde fleet was still a major threat even to Proudmoore. Dodging slow warships and sinking transports was EASIER than trying to sink those slow warships themselves.

* Therefore, what did this powerful Horde fleet do after barely transporting the Horde army to Hillsbrad? It did whatever it wanted. It tore apart Tol Barad, with its marines (berserkers?) butchering the island. Maybe it sailed up to Lake Darrowmere and wrought havoc there. After all, Chronicles doesn't say that DIDN'T happen.

* Gul'dan takes the crews loyal to Stormreaver and sails to the Tomb. The other ships pursue him. Epic battle at the Broken Isles, resulting in the ship wreckage we saw in Frozen Throne.

* The rest is history with Crestfall. Proudmoore sees his chance to remove Horde sea power for good, and he takes it.

* * *

This is how Grackle sees a strong Horde fleet in Chronicle. All lakes empty into denial. This is how Grackle lives on.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 04-13-2017 at 02:24 PM..
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Old 04-13-2017, 02:25 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Juggernauts are pretty crude. Dem ugly.
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Old 04-13-2017, 02:27 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Juggernauts are pretty crude. Dem ugly.
*BUUUURP*
He did it!
No, he did it!

EDIT: To whoever made that tag, these are "Grackle Facts".

EDIT: Thank you.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 04-13-2017 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 04-13-2017, 02:31 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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I just realized the scourge transport ship is almost the same as the one used by the Horde in the second war.



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Old 04-13-2017, 02:33 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
I just realized the scourge transport ship is almost the same as the one used by the Horde in the second war.
WC3 has the same models for Orc and Scourge transport, unfortunately.
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
I just realized the scourge transport ship is almost the same as the one used by the Horde in the second war.
I'm not sure, but I think we've seen ships like those in WoW, too.

Talking about contemporary seafaring technologies is kosher for this thread, right?
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:18 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
I'm not sure, but I think we've seen ships like those in WoW, too.

Talking about contemporary seafaring technologies is kosher for this thread, right?
Please! I'm still looking for evidence of a Highblood Elven sailor NPC in WoW. Anywhere!
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Please! I'm still looking for evidence of a Highblood Elven sailor NPC in WoW. Anywhere!
Captain Thalo'thas Brightsun

Does this guy qualify?
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:33 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Please! I'm still looking for evidence of a Highblood Elven sailor NPC in WoW. Anywhere!
Eh? There's a high elf guy giving quests to the Horde to battle Northwatch Keep troops that attacked his ship.
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:36 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Perfect. Look at those outfits. Transporting moonshine! Too bad it's not vanilla . . .
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:39 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Perfect. Look at those outfits. Transporting moonshine! Too bad it's not vanilla . . .
Man, the Guns of Northwatch was one of my favourite early quest.

There's another high elf guy in his crew, captured by the Alliance.
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:56 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Man, the Guns of Northwatch was one of my favourite early quest.

There's another high elf guy in his crew, captured by the Alliance.
Firebough. Spelled "bough" like a tree. Which means it's pronounced like the "bow" of a ship, not like the "bow" of an archer.
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Old 04-13-2017, 06:34 PM
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On Azeroth how could any navy succeed when there will always be deep-sea beasties and wrathful elemental spirits to impede your sails?(!) Ships are antiquated in a world where teleportation is safer and more reliable than faring the dangerous seas.

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Old 04-13-2017, 07:07 PM
Yorenec Yorenec is offline

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On Azeroth how could any navy succeed when there will always be deep-sea beasties and wrathful elemental spirits to impede your sails?(!) Ships are antiquated in a world where teleportation is safer and more reliable than faring the dangerous seas.
Until a method of cheap and reliable method of transporting large amounts of cargo and people is developed, ships will always be the best way to do it. Just like RL planes can get weighted down too much to stay in the air, zeppelins face the same dilemma. Keeping a portal open long enough to bring through the sheer amount that ships are capable of would certainly destabilize it and mess with the ley lines.

Aside from that, a navy is useful because naval bombardments are notoriously difficult to counter. On top of the fact they can get out of range of the guns on land(that generally can't be moved in any efficient manner) designed to destroy them, a naval ship can easily carry all sorts of all-purpose/specific guns to defend itself with. The sheer mobile strike power and troop transport capability that a naval fleet offers isn't to be remotely underestimated.

Kraken and naga attacks probably aren't as common as you'd think anyway. Aram had never seen one before a baby attacked the dinghy he and Makasa were on, and by that point he'd been sailing around Azeroth for six months. Even then they're more like to prey on lone merchant vessels than an armed navy.

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Old 04-13-2017, 07:12 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Whoa whoa whoa. Marthen likes. So, what do we have here? Let's see.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post

Well, it was never literally spelled out in the old days. The WC2 manual uses the phrases "heavily armed and armored" and "veritable floating fortresses", but someone could interpret that more like a galleon if they wanted to. I always felt like my "ironclad" interpretation was headcanon fueled by an interest in the American Civil War.

WC2 ships used oil, but the juggernaught was a sail ship like the others. Only now, as I'm typing this to you, have I realized that WC3 added a smokestack that verifies them as coal/steam powered. It's kind of exciting for me.
Aha. Alright, this might be my different perception, and ultimately also the fact that I really, really consider the atwork as much canon as the text when it comes to Warcraft, but there are several things that made me believe that juggernaughts were ironclad paddle steamers even back in 1995. And I am saying that as someone who never alluded the Second War to the American Civil War in any significant degree, altough again, that might be just my different place of origin. What things, you say? Well...

Look at these pictures. I might be dead blind, I do not contend that, but what I see in both of these are...paddle wheels. Two, each on one side of a juggernaught...

https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow...acb8069bbd651c
https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow...845c11d4ae8501

Fine, you say, paddle wheels do not have to imply a steamer. But bear with me. Here's another thing. Now tied to the ironclad claim.

Quote:
Foundry

Known by the trio of towering smokestacks that surround this structure, the Foundry is instrumental in creating the massive armor plates and lethal cannons that are found on the greatest of the Orc warships - the Juggernaught. Abysmally dark and sweltering with unnatural heat, Foundries are filled with an acrid layer of smoke and soot - making most Orcs feel right at home when visiting one. Heat emanates from all openings as Foundry workers pour molten slag into casts for new cannons, while pounding resounds for miles along the coast as they shape ore into new armor.
Massive armor plates. Hmm. Made in a foundry. On an heavily armored ship. Doesn't that strike one as, well, ironclad? I mean, what else would these plates be used for? But it's not everything, there's more.

Quote:
Although Oil is commonly used in the construction and powering of ships, it has been utilized in the development of both experimental flying craft and extremely powerful weapons.
Powering of ships. So, we have a heavily armed ship, a ship that uses, for some reason, massive armor plates made in foundries. A ship that requires oil, a ship that uses paddle wheels next to sails. It might be just me, but I just find it highly unlikely for such a combination of things to not heavily imply, if not confirm, an ironclad paddle steamer. I know I might be making things up, I know I might have been back then, but how not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post

So, I'm ready to make peace with Chronicle. For a Warcraft fan, the stages of grieving are anger, depression, bargaining, and finally denial. That denial is called headcanon.

Here is mine, for the battle before Hillsbrad. Pay attention to my boldings.



Grackle's headcanon follows:

* Juggernauts are harder to destroy than almost any other vessel. By "crude", the text means slow, ugly, and sailing in an amateur formation. The "injured wolf" bit is empty rhetoric.

* Proudmoore wasn't stupid enough to target the imposing juggernauts or the veteran Amani destroyers (the turtles probably weren't tamed this early). Instead he "outmaneuvered" them, meaning...

* He slipped through their formations, using superior sailing speed to avoid juggernaut cannons or boarding attempts, and FOCUSED ALL OF HIS FIRE ON THE TRANSPORTS.

* The first volley "blew orcish ships to pieces" - TRANSPORT ships! Not juggernauts, not Amani ships. Yes, it was very clearly "dozens of transports" that sank. All of his ships concentrated on sinking the transports; the slow juggernauts couldn't catch him, and the lighter Amani couldn't damage enough to make up for it. That's why Proudmoore felt he could destroy the Horde "army" at sea, not its navy.

* This means that after the battle, the Horde fleet was still a major threat even to Proudmoore. Dodging slow warships and sinking transports was EASIER than trying to sink those slow warships themselves.

* Therefore, what did this powerful Horde fleet do after barely transporting the Horde army to Hillsbrad? It did whatever it wanted. It tore apart Tol Barad, with its marines (berserkers?) butchering the island. Maybe it sailed up to Lake Darrowmere and wrought havoc there. After all, Chronicles doesn't say that DIDN'T happen.

* Gul'dan takes the crews loyal to Stormreaver and sails to the Tomb. The other ships pursue him. Epic battle at the Broken Isles, resulting in the ship wreckage we saw in Frozen Throne.

* The rest is history with Crestfall. Proudmoore sees his chance to remove Horde sea power for good, and he takes it.

* * *
What can I say here? I am glad you consider something I was telling you (probably not clearly enough, so the fault is mine alone) over much of the last month at least your headcanon. Well, except for Darrowmere, as it does not necessitate a naval battle to exist given the current realities, but nevermind that.
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:36 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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A jumble of thoughs: I definitely agree the Juggernauts are Ironclads, guns of northeatch was a great quest for belfs in horde, Zeppelins and airships can't replace boats for cargo, not yet at least, Saurfang said as much in Warsong Hold


Continuing:
What are your thoughts on how a modern horde navy might develop given all the advancements that have been made since wc2 in both magic and tech?

I think Juggernauts would still be heavily armed compared to other ships but would also have bestiarys, alchemy labs, or elemental chambers aboard depending on the crew, to mirror modern development of aircraft carriers


Picture a juggernaut with protodrakes, pterrorwings and such alongside some goblin bombers and its helm doubling as a zeppelin refueling tower
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorenec View Post
Until a method of cheap and reliable method of transporting large amounts of cargo and people is developed, ships will always be the best way to do it. Just like RL planes can get weighted down too much to stay in the air, zeppelins face the same dilemma. Keeping a portal open long enough to bring through the sheer amount that ships are capable of would certainly destabilize it and mess with the ley lines.

Aside from that, a navy is useful because naval bombardments are notoriously difficult to counter. On top of the fact they can get out of range of the guns on land(that generally can't be moved in any efficient manner) designed to destroy them, a naval ship can easily carry all sorts of all-purpose/specific guns to defend itself with. The sheer mobile strike power and troop transport capability that a naval fleet offers isn't to be remotely underestimated.

Kraken and naga attacks probably aren't as common as you'd think anyway. Aram had never seen one before a baby attacked the dinghy he and Makasa were on, and by that point he'd been sailing around Azeroth for six months. Even then they're more like to prey on lone merchant vessels than an armed navy.
There's also the issue of structures/forts/areas imbued with runes to prevent teleportation without proper "controls".
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:58 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Whoa whoa whoa. Marthen likes. So, what do we have here? Let's see.



Aha. Alright, this might be my different perception, and ultimately also the fact that I really, really consider the atwork as much canon as the text when it comes to Warcraft, but there are several things that made me believe that juggernaughts were ironclad paddle steamers even back in 1995. And I am saying that as someone who never alluded the Second War to the American Civil War in any significant degree, altough again, that might be just my different place of origin. What things, you say? Well...

Look at these pictures. I might be dead blind, I do not contend that, but what I see in both of these are...paddle wheels. Two, each on one side of a juggernaught...

https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow...acb8069bbd651c
https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow...845c11d4ae8501

Fine, you say, paddle wheels do not have to imply a steamer. But bear with me. Here's another thing. Now tied to the ironclad claim.



Massive armor plates. Hmm. Made in a foundry. On an heavily armored ship. Doesn't that strike one as, well, ironclad? I mean, what else would these plates be used for? But it's not everything, there's more.



Powering of ships. So, we have a heavily armed ship, a ship that uses, for some reason, massive armor plates made in foundries. A ship that requires oil, a ship that uses paddle wheels next to sails. It might be just me, but I just find it highly unlikely for such a combination of things to not heavily imply, if not confirm, an ironclad paddle steamer. I know I might be making things up, I know I might have been back then, but how not?
Good info! I actually hadn't connected those sections as being paddles.

Quote:
What can I say here? I am glad you consider something I was telling you (probably not clearly enough, so the fault is mine alone) over much of the last month at least your headcanon. Well, except for Darrowmere, as it does not necessitate a naval battle to exist given the current realities, but nevermind that.
Hey, you convinced me the Horde could've won the war. For that, the trigger was telling me Turalyon's army had to retreat behind Silvermoon to avoid being destroyed.

For the Horde navy thing? People have been trying to convince me of all kinds of things about this. I've heard that none of the orcs would've been skilled seafarers - I reject that. I've heard that the Horde ships would've certainly been inferior and fragile - I reject that. I've heard that Proudmoore was just sooo good that his fleet could thrash any other fleet without breaking a sweat - I reject that (A beastmaster thrashed his battleships in Blaze of Glory, and I give credit to his juggernauts!).

But for this, my trigger was: Proudmoore targeted the transports. It wasn't a cakewalk to sink the Horde navy; it was a cakewalk to sink the part of the Horde navy that was carrying the Horde army. No one had made that suggestion to me before.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 04-13-2017 at 10:00 PM..
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:17 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I am happy for BaronGrackle and for us all

This headcanon is a good headcanon, and probably also filled with cannons.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:53 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post

For the Horde navy thing? People have been trying to convince me of all kinds of things about this. I've heard that none of the orcs would've been skilled seafarers - I reject that. I've heard that the Horde ships would've certainly been inferior and fragile - I reject that. I've heard that Proudmoore was just sooo good that his fleet could thrash any other fleet without breaking a sweat - I reject that (A beastmaster thrashed his battleships in Blaze of Glory, and I give credit to his juggernauts!).

But for this, my trigger was: Proudmoore targeted the transports. It wasn't a cakewalk to sink the Horde navy; it was a cakewalk to sink the part of the Horde navy that was carrying the Horde army. No one had made that suggestion to me before.
I now feel stupid. I thought I had told you of that possibility. Turns out I hadn't, it was someone else. That's what happens when I drink alcohol, I misremember things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Continuing:
What are your thoughts on how a modern horde navy might develop given all the advancements that have been made since wc2 in both magic and tech?

I think Juggernauts would still be heavily armed compared to other ships but would also have bestiarys, alchemy labs, or elemental chambers aboard depending on the crew, to mirror modern development of aircraft carriers


Picture a juggernaut with protodrakes, pterrorwings and such alongside some goblin bombers and its helm doubling as a zeppelin refueling tower
Well, I already imagine them serving as "carriers" even back during the Second War, Chronicle told us that even dragons are not able to traverse seas without reprise, so it's fine by me. Although, I imagine the modern designs to be more sleek, in order to be more manouverable.
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:37 AM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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I just want to see a blood/high elf destroyer go full ramming speed and split another ship in half.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Please! I'm still looking for evidence of a Highblood Elven sailor NPC in WoW. Anywhere!
There are the NPCs at Sunsail Anchorage, IIRC.

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Old 04-14-2017, 07:20 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
On Azeroth how could any navy succeed when there will always be deep-sea beasties and wrathful elemental spirits to impede your sails?(!) Ships are antiquated in a world where teleportation is safer and more reliable than faring the dangerous seas.
They chill. Unless it's da Cataclysm.
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Old 04-14-2017, 07:51 AM
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Between the three pairs of sails and the coal-powered paddlers, I imagine the juggernauts actually were pretty speedy.

However, here's another observation on their design: Juggernaut guns are all pointed in different directions. Moreover, the guns aimed at port and starboard are the smallest cannons on the ship. If faced one-on-one with a human battleship and exchanging broadsides, the juggernaut would actually have significantly less firepower than the battleship. If the juggernaut formation is sufficiently loose, human ships could definitely exploit this.

On the other hand, juggernauts look they might be absolute murder on a line-of-battle. Those bastards look like they were built for ramming, plus they got their biggest cannons on their prow.

I imagine juggernaut-on-juggernaut fights to consist of trying to ram one another, while using the prow guns on approach, with the smaller guns only used to try and take out sails and paddles.
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  #24  
Old 04-18-2017, 02:08 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Magtheridon loved ships so much he had them INSIDE his Hellfire Citadel, making special canals for them.

How much do YOU love ships?
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  #25  
Old 04-18-2017, 04:11 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Militaristic
seafaring
gay
water
communism
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alcohol, critical thinking, grackle facts, warcraft, you are a pirate

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