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Old 04-23-2013, 02:14 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Default What should happen to Varian Wrynn?

He seems to be walking down the dark road of being as maligned as characters like Thrall and Malfurion are. There is so much outrage over his character that it could probably make Lordaeron debates feel a little shy. Everyone seems to hate him except maybe people who like Stormwind Lore. Let's find out what should happen with his character and see if an agreement can be made.

My personal opinions of Varian Wrynn:
1. His introduction in the comic were thoroughly well done, in my opinion. Aside from the stupidity of certain plot points, Varian's character was at least handled very well until the end of the comic book arc. (With Med'an and all of that garbage.)

2. His characterization in Wrath was very sloppily handled and only continued to be so during Cataclysm. I'll admit, I did not like him during Wrath and only slowly hoped he would get better in the expansions onwards.

3. His characterization in MoP was, in my own opinion, a lot better and I now think he fits a lot better as a proper king of Stormwind with ideals such as honor and nobility. I think Stormwind should at least be the one kingdom that doesn't have a too heavily flawed leader as well as one that can make well-reasoned decisions.

4. The High King idea is very sloppily handled, unsurprisingly due to its overwhelmingly negative feedback. Such ideas I have had for it is for it to be a military title held only over the borders of the Eastern Kingdoms, that or have it just be a political/military title for the reinvigorated human kingdoms that Varian manages to salvage.

5. I think even despite Varian's involvement in MoP, it still strikes me as unwarranted to calling him as a completely perfect, Jesus-like character. That also goes for such alleged claims of being "Jesus-like" towards other characters such as Thrall, so Varian is not exclusive to this in case anyone here wants to call me biased.

Lastly...

6. There's not much else Varian has going for him outside of the war against the Horde. Meanwhile, other underrepresented races such as Draenei or (I guess) Night Elves still have a wide plethora of unexplored story potential that isn't meeting its potential just yet. I would very much like to see that potential explored and I sympathize with the impatience over why it's not being explored yet, but it should still be known that there DOES exist potential to be explored outside of just fighting the Horde.

It seems like every direction they take with Varian just pisses people off even more, which is unfortunate, so what would make you more happy with his character? (Yes, I'll even take statements that he should just go die, if that's the case.)
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:19 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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He should die, and Anduin's ascension should be delayed by the House of Nobles.

The House of Nobles have always been implied to hold vast power in Stormwind (and still do as of Tides of War) yet we know and see very little of them. It was through the House of Nobles that Katrana Prestor gained control of Stormwind, it was through the House of Nobles that the Stonemasons rebelled due to the houses' decision to not pay them. The House of Nobles seem to oppose the throne at every corner.

Having Stormwind ruled by a House of Nobles, representing noble families of all the human kingdoms, former and current, would allow humanity to embrace "their own" lore from the various kingdoms, and put an end to the homogenisation of the Alliance.
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The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

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Old 04-23-2013, 02:21 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
He should die, and Anduin's ascension should be delayed by the House of Nobles.

The House of Nobles have always been implied to hold vast power in Stormwind (and still do as of Tides of War) yet we know and see very little of them. It was through the House of Nobles that Katrana Prestor gained control of Stormwind, it was through the House of Nobles that the Stonemasons rebelled due to the houses' decision to not pay them. The House of Nobles seem to oppose the throne at every corner.

Having Stormwind ruled by a House of Nobles, representing noble families of all the human kingdoms, former and current, would allow humanity to embrace "their own" lore from the various kingdoms, and put an end to the homogenisation of the Alliance.
But there would still need to be a Stormwind boss that Horde can raid for their achievement.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:22 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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But there would still need to be a Stormwind boss that Horde can raid for their achievement.
The "House of Lords" and the "House of Commons" are good enough as a boss.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:25 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
But there would still need to be a Stormwind boss that Horde can raid for their achievement.
Seems to work fairly well in Ironforge.

Simply have a Lord-Regent or a representative of the house.

On the top of my head, Proudmoore, Greymane, Ellerian, Prestor, Fordragon, Trollbane, Erlgadin, Lesvocar, Ridewell, Crowley, Windrunner and Wishock are all families who could appear.
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Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:28 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
Seems to work fairly well in Ironforge.

Simply have a Lord-Regent or a representative of the house.

On the top of my head, Proudmoore, Greymane, Ellerian, Prestor, Fordragon, Trollbane, Erlgadin, Lesvocar, Ridewell, Crowley, Windrunner and Wishock are all families who could appear.
How would Varian die?
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:29 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I actually loved varian in wrath. He wasn't crazy. He wasn't angry because he was racist. He was hurt. Hurt in pretty much every way possible. Everyone he has loved or revered is dead, hurt, or at risk of something bad happening to him. He's a man who tried his best to keep it all together. He was the first alliance character to call thrall out on his flaws. He was angry. I like angry. It just never stuck to thrall because blizzard has a hard time putting thrall in the wrong of things.

I like his progression into a better leader, but it should've been due to his own strengths and help of the alliance not some magical ritual. High king would've gone better had it been about varian developing what makes him a good leader while bonding with other leaders instead of showing them up by being awesome. Varian is just another victim of blizzard trying to develop a character to be relatable. Characters that are supposed to be in the wrong are ironically shown as being sympathetic by the fans.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:37 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
How would Varian die?
Fantasy fanfic scenario?

MoP ends with the demise of Garrosh and the pacification of the Orcs. The Horde abolishes the Warchief title and undergo a cultural and spiritual renaissance.

Varian Wrynn proposes peace between the Horde and the Alliance. The House of Nobles takes advantage of the situation, drawing support from those who have been wronged by the Horde and are unwilling or unable to forgive them. Stormwind undergoes a bloody revolution which ends with the death of Varian Wrynn, and the exclusion of House Wrynn from the House of Nobles, with Anduin garnering support from House Greymane, amongst others, and is spirited away to safety on Azuremyst.

The House of Nobles continue to feud amongst themselves for the remainder of WoW's lifetime, unable to decide which amongst the noble houses is the most fit to sit upon the throne. Each and every family believe that they are themselves the most fit to rule the nation (some for selfless reasons, such as Greymane and Proudmoore who both believe themselves to know what's actually good for humanity, while others harbour less sincere and more ambitious agendas).

Final expansion may or may not see Calia Menethil entering the fray.
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Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:37 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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I want Anduin as far away from the throne as possible. He'd probably offer it to Baine as a "sign of respect".

Whatever happens with Varian, it needs to be a positive for the Alliance, not just fucking Humanity.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:39 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Storwind lacks direction, which is why it's bleeding it's hepatitis all over the alliance and infecting it's races with homogenisation and blandness.

Give Stormwind direction, and it'll be able to keep it's own themes distinct from the other races.
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Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:41 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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It needs to pacify Westfall, get Duskwood and Red-ridge under control and project itself as a bastion of Human power - not just Alliance power, but promoting the interests of Humanity. Kind of like Cerberus but without the whole racism thing.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:44 PM
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Varian should get a new wife asap. Anduin isn't really interested in succeeding him, as far as I can see, and he's not really the best choice, anyways. A new heir, that's what we need.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:47 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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My personal opinions of Varian Wrynn:
1. His introduction in the comic were thoroughly well done, in my opinion. Aside from the stupidity of certain plot points, Varian's character was at least handled very well until the end of the comic book arc. (With Med'an and all of that garbage.)
I loved him in Wrath. He actually seemed to care about humanity and wanted to bring justice to the Horde.


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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
2. His characterization in Wrath was very sloppily handled and only continued to be so during Cataclysm. I'll admit, I did not like him during Wrath and only slowly hoped he would get better in the expansions onwards.
I really disliked him in Cata and the books during cata. Anger management problems without reason and the whole wolf ancient shit.

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3. His characterization in MoP was, in my own opinion, a lot better and I now think he fits a lot better as a proper king of Stormwind with ideals such as honor and nobility. I think Stormwind should at least be the one kingdom that doesn't have a too heavily flawed leader as well as one that can make well-reasoned decisions.
I do not like him as a hippie peace lover. His son is already annoying enough.

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4. The High King idea is very sloppily handled, unsurprisingly due to its overwhelmingly negative feedback. Such ideas I have had for it is for it to be a military title held only over the borders of the Eastern Kingdoms, that or have it just be a political/military title for the reinvigorated human kingdoms that Varian manages to salvage.
I hate the high king thing in this form. If he were the high king of humanity I could buy it.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:11 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Shave his belly with a rusty razor.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:16 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I do not like him as a hippie peace lover. His son is already annoying enough.
Eh, I don't personally interpret Varian as a hippie peace lover, otherwise he wouldn't be getting his jollies off of leading Orcs into traps that cause their insides to go spilling out.
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:28 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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He seems to be walking down the dark road of being as maligned as characters like Thrall and Malfurion are. There is so much outrage over his character that it could probably make Lordaeron debates feel a little shy. Everyone seems to hate him except maybe people who like Stormwind Lore. Let's find out what should happen with his character and see if an agreement can be made.
Probably because he felt forced upon the Alliance players while the more established Alliance leaders prior to his arrival haven't been as expanded upon (except for maybe Tyrande who has a ton of books and WC3 in her bag). But then again, if you wish that the Alliance had a "Thrall" then you can't complain when Blizzard gives you one.

Quote:
My personal opinions of Varian Wrynn:
1. His introduction in the comic were thoroughly well done, in my opinion. Aside from the stupidity of certain plot points, Varian's character was at least handled very well until the end of the comic book arc. (With Med'an and all of that garbage.)
My very favorite incarnation of Varian to be sure. I enjoyed him as a character with flaws that he was working to overcome and how he went about his business.

Quote:
2. His characterization in Wrath was very sloppily handled and only continued to be so during Cataclysm. I'll admit, I did not like him during Wrath and only slowly hoped he would get better in the expansions onwards.
Agreed since it was quite a shock to see him turn into "angry/angry Varian" and "Garrosh gets under my skin so I'm going to take my toys and go home".

Where did comic Varian go and did he get split again? As for Cataclym, in game, he really didn't do much except tell us that he loved his son. He was a douchey man-child in Wolfheart, to date my most hated version of him, until he went through the ritual and finally after three times got that anger issue taken care of.

Quote:
3. His characterization in MoP was, in my own opinion, a lot better and I now think he fits a lot better as a proper king of Stormwind with ideals such as honor and nobility. I think Stormwind should at least be the one kingdom that doesn't have a too heavily flawed leader as well as one that can make well-reasoned decisions.
Maybe, I just find him way too damn mellow. He is now acting very zen and doesn't seem to show emotion anymore, especially when you have "angry Jaina". The guy couldn't get angry after Anduin was nearly killed? I dunno what he is smoking, but I wish he would stop. It's okay to have flaws, look around the rest of the leadership in the Horde and Alliance. If he keeps it up I wouldn't be suprised if we find out that the worgen ritual failed or something.

Quote:
4. The High King idea is very sloppily handled, unsurprisingly due to its overwhelmingly negative feedback. Such ideas I have had for it is for it to be a military title held only over the borders of the Eastern Kingdoms, that or have it just be a political/military title for the reinvigorated human kingdoms that Varian manages to salvage.
Based upon what was said at BlizzCon and what we saw in game, it's pretty clear that it has been changed drastically because of player feedback. Metzen wanted to give the Alliance their Warchief because it fits in their idea of the Alliance. But the players have a much different idea and hence the posts about the Blue Horde, Blue Warchief and all of that. And while they say that the trials are continuing, it's pretty clear that they aren't much of a trial. I personally don't mind the idea, I just felt that it could've been better handled by renaming it and bringing in the idea of Varian following in Lothar's footsteps, if Varian was the only choice for the spot. No one in the Alliance playerbase is more loved and respected then Lothar.

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5. I think even despite Varian's involvement in MoP, it still strikes me as unwarranted to calling him as a completely perfect, Jesus-like character. That also goes for such alleged claims of being "Jesus-like" towards other characters such as Thrall, so Varian is not exclusive to this in case anyone here wants to call me biased.
I wouldn't call him Jesus-like, but he no longer has the flaws that he once did and while we don't need him to be bi-polar, it's okay to have some flaws. But I chalk it up to the story that Blizzard is telling. In order for the Alliance to be unified under Varian's military leadership and to see him as the best hope, I guess that he can't have any flaws, well, except for keeping his allies in the dark while he tried to bring the blood elves in and then blame Jaina for not being a mind reader or something to knwo that he was secretly working behind the scenes. Which made no sense when I did that questline.

Lastly...

Quote:
6. There's not much else Varian has going for him outside of the war against the Horde.
Actually there is. He is still King of Stormwind. He is still the biggest mover and shaker in the Alliance. He has the biggest kingdom to rule. It's not like it could have been with Lothar, if he survived, after the Second War where he just goes into retirement. Varian can't do it. He still has a kingdom to rule and a son to protect and teach to take over when he dies.

Now after MoP, depending on the state of the war, I'd like for him to take a step back and concentrate on fixing his own kingdom and working with his son.
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:42 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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bringing in the idea of Varian following in Lothar's footsteps, if Varian was the only choice for the spot. No one in the Alliance playerbase is more loved and respected then Lothar.
The Know Your Lore post about how to fix the Alliance... the second one... I remember it was talking about how Bolvar was so favored by Alliance fans because he was a regular guy in many ways. How he led when he could, and he appreciated you the player's help, but how he had to work hard when he fought---instead of roflstomping and flying around like a super saiyan.

That sort of reminded me how I felt about Lothar. Even if he was the leader and cornerstone of the Alliance, the Alliance was never all about him. In both the old lore and modern lore, even though Lothar was responsible for some major achievements, there was an even larger number of Alliance achievements that he had nothing to do with.

Temperance.


EDIT: Also, as a side note? Now that the universe is starting to see flaws in some of Thrall's decisions, I'm actually starting to like Thrall better as a character.

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Old 04-23-2013, 05:05 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Varian should get a new wife asap. Anduin isn't really interested in succeeding him, as far as I can see, and he's not really the best choice, anyways. A new heir, that's what we need.
That would be refreshingly realistic. Good luck seeing it though.


Anyway I am mostly with Verdande here. Varian as he is now will be a horribly static character post SoO, so it is best he dies there. If he did it heroically and embodying what it means to be Alliance then I can't imagine a better send off for the character.

After he dies the corrupt nobles get into power, and form a human Empire by forcefully unifying all other kingdoms, this causes a lot of strife within the Alliance.
The nobles also decide to expand and colonize the world, giving that much needed ambiguity to the Alliance.

For example they could invade Stranglethorn and force the trolls to work on their plantations, picture a human keep surrounded by trollish huts. The humans look on from their stony walls as trolls toil away for their imperators.
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:16 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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I loved him in Wrath. He actually seemed to care about humanity and wanted to bring justice to the Horde.

I really disliked him in Cata and the books during cata. Anger management problems without reason and the whole wolf ancient shit.
They completely derailed Varian's established characterization to make him fit the role they wanted him in. The stuff they did with him in Cataclysm was a clumsy attempt to reconcile that, but the damage has really already been done to the integrity of his character.
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:20 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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The best bet is for him to try and push something the other leaders don't like and have them rebel, only for him to push it through anyway.

This would splinter the Alliance a bit, which needs to be done post MoP so the Alliance isn't in to much of a more powerful position than the Horde, it would free up the member nations militaries from under his command by havnig the leaders call them back, and it could open the door for the other races and leaders to start pushing their own agendas around Varian.
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:54 PM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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Humans have a ton of issues going on right now.

-Disunity between human nations.
-The inability to keep Stormwind's borders secure against the Blackrocks.
-A fiscal crisis.
-An economy that doesn't appear to be developing alongside the Dwarves'.

and of course...

-Lordaeron.

Varian Wrynn should be the first to address those issues, and Goldrinn needs to kindly leave the screen. Varian needs to be Stormwind's leader - he doesn't need to be at the head of the entire Alliance. Following that, he should work in concert with other leaders, rather then having them work in tandem to him.
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:33 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Humans have a ton of issues going on right now.

-Disunity between human nations.
-The inability to keep Stormwind's borders secure against the Blackrocks.
-A fiscal crisis.
-An economy that doesn't appear to be developing alongside the Dwarves'.

and of course...

-Lordaeron.

Varian Wrynn should be the first to address those issues, and Goldrinn needs to kindly leave the screen. Varian needs to be Stormwind's leader - he doesn't need to be at the head of the entire Alliance. Following that, he should work in concert with other leaders, rather then having them work in tandem to him.
I'd agree but how do you turn perfect good guy Varian into a man who solves those issues?

Unless Blizzard gives up on their plan to make him into a baby saving superhero I do not see him being the man to take a hardline stance and solve those issues in a realistic and pleasing manner.
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:36 PM
Loarian Loarian is offline

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Stormwind undergoes a bloody revolution which ends with the death of Varian Wrynn.
Can we have his skull cracked open by a stone?
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:49 PM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I'd agree but how do you turn perfect good guy Varian into a man who solves those issues?

Unless Blizzard gives up on their plan to make him into a baby saving superhero I do not see him being the man to take a hardline stance and solve those issues in a realistic and pleasing manner.
Well, I think one method of doing that is to make him a leader of equal power to the others. They should disagree with him on things he needs done, and he should have to work around that. He should have to play more of the political game, and should have to make difficult decisions.

That's the first step.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:01 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin Raintree View Post
Well, I think one method of doing that is to make him a leader of equal power to the others. They should disagree with him on things he needs done, and he should have to work around that. He should have to play more of the political game, and should have to make difficult decisions.

That's the first step.
Not what I mean.

You mentioned taking over the other human kingdoms. That would not be easy, especially if those kindgoms are not willing to bend knee to him.

To recycle an example I used in a different thread, take Stromgarde for example. To secure it one has to first drive out or kill the ogres, then you have to deal with human traitors (Syndicate), then you have to take out the trolls (who have been living there longer than the humans probably), then you have to deal with the orcs and drive them out of a historically important site(to the orcs).
That is a lot of killing (lest I use a different word) and given Blizzard's recent portrayal of Varian I do not see him as the man to do or condone this.
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