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Old 12-02-2013, 10:41 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Default Illidan and Kael'Thas: Who Betrayed Who?

So I was looking up things on Wowpedia, when I came upon this. http://wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Secret_Compromised. So did these two always not trust each other or was it the result of the player?

Also I'm confused on whether or not Kael'thas betrayed his people/attacked everyone or did his people abandon him first?
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:05 PM
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Blizzard betrayed Kael.

Illidan gave Kael what could save his people, and Blizzard turned Kael into an idiot to side with the dangerous demons.
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:15 PM
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Based on lacunair information, it's my current belief that Kael had betrayed Illidan a bit before BC, and was planning to take over Outland, probably with the help of a reunified Blood Elf population empowered by the techniques he taught Rommath, and further down the line, fel corrupted by its use.

Now, I don't think Kael' thought he betrayed his people, merely that he had found in KJ a worthy patron to return his people to glory. He may have glossed over the gritty details of his plan, to avoid having to justify his choices: in his mind, people WILL realize he's right after they have a taste of his plan.

And that's the core of the Blood Elf story pre-Outland. There's one outlier in this plan in the form of Mu'ru - it feels a bit odd to have an epitome of Light, sworn enemy of the Legion, delivered to one's capital city, *especially* if your people aren't sold on your plans yet.

Post-Ouland, I remember the Blood Elves trying their best to reach their prince, but most interaction with Kael's forces being aggressive from the get-go: at Fallen Sky Ridge, with the mana bomb in Terrokar...

I'm guessing at some point you're meant to realize Kael is in league with the Legion, and supposedly break off from his forces, but it's never stated outright when that happens...
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:23 PM
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The 5.2 Warlock quest says that Illidan had a way to cure the blood elves of their addiction but never shared it with them. So that was kind of a dick move.

That said, given the dialogue in the quest you linked, the reason he didn't share it was probably because he didn't trust Kael.
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Old 12-03-2013, 03:43 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Illidan betrayed Kael'thas obviously, that malformed emo bastard. No I am not biased, what makes you think that?



But seriously now, I think Kael'thas screwed over Illidan first but Illidan was a failure, brooding and useless, so I don't blame him much. In reality both Illidan and Kael got screwed over by Blizzard writing hard in TBC, one made lolevil and the other an incompetent idiot. Illidan also didn't share that magical cure as mention before.
But again both characters were crippled in TBC and later Blizzard revealed they were sorry for wasting them like that (MFW when I heard that was grumpy cat with the caption "good, you deserve to be sorry").

Last edited by C9H20; 12-03-2013 at 06:46 AM..
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Old 12-03-2013, 06:20 AM
Mark_Romaneck Mark_Romaneck is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Blizzard betrayed Kael.

Illidan gave Kael what could save his people, and Blizzard turned Kael into an idiot to side with the dangerous demons.
Shit who are you and what did you do with our slow? that actually makes sense
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  #7  
Old 12-03-2013, 09:00 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
So I was looking up things on Wowpedia, when I came upon this. http://wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Secret_Compromised. So did these two always not trust each other or was it the result of the player?
The big plot point about TBC's Illidan is that he's a paranoid and trusts no one. However, in Kael's case he was correct to be such - while Illidan was preparing an anti-Legion army, Kael took the demons' help to activate the Manaforges.

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Also I'm confused on whether or not Kael'thas betrayed his people/attacked everyone or did his people abandon him first?
Kael never thought that he was a betrayer, and the only one who betrayed him before the Fury events were the Scryers.

It goes something like this:

1) Kael conquers the Netherstorm. Mu'uru is sent to Silvermoon as a gift for the local people.

2) He sends Vorenthal with an army to take over Shattrath

3) Vorenthal gets a vision about the good-good Naaru, abandons Kael and joins the Shat'ar forces

4) Burning Legion contacts Kael's forces and offers to teach them how to operate Manaforges

5) At this point Kael has, for the most part, abandoned Illidan. He still, however, plots with the Fel Orc clans of Terrokar and Pathaleon acts like a dick in both Netherstorm and Hellfire Peninsula. Illidan has his own cadre of elves, but it is debatable whether they directly answer to Illidan or just stay in Shadowmoon Valley as part of Kael's army.

6) Silvermoon Elves join with the Horde. Grand Magister Rommath stayed in contact with Kael all that time and informs him of this decision (also asking some secret question on Thrall's behalf and getting an approving answer).

7) Silvermoon pilgrims pass the Dark Portal. They still work for Kael in Hellfire Peninsula, but the player is supposed to agree with the Scryers without questions by the time he/she reaches Shattrath. Not everyone on the pilgramage actually join the Sunfury - the less lucky get to serve in the mines (EVUL!)

8) Aldors and Scryers ACTUALLY FIND OUT that Kael is, in fact, in cohorts with the demons. This is important. Before that moment, Scryers knew nothing of that and just fought Kael because he's against the Great Naaru!

9) Akama rats out Kael's betrayal to Illidan.

10) Kael is defeated in the Tempest Keep.

11) No Silvermoon reaction.

12) Undead?Kael appears on Azeroth and his felbloods take back the Mu'uru. They occupy Quel'Danas, attacking the randomly placed Spellbreakers (Blizzard forgot that these guys only ever appeared as warriors of KAEL'S army)

13) Silvermoon is scared, Liadrin goes to Shattrath to lick the Naaru.
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Old 12-03-2013, 11:40 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by Reignac View Post
The 5.2 Warlock quest says that Illidan had a way to cure the blood elves of their addiction but never shared it with them. So that was kind of a dick move.

That said, given the dialogue in the quest you linked, the reason he didn't share it was probably because he didn't trust Kael.
No, he gave Kael what could save his people.
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Old 12-03-2013, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Illidan
Betrayer... In truth, it was I who was betrayed.
There's your answer.
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Old 12-03-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Illidan betrayed Kael'thas obviously, that malformed emo bastard. No I am not biased, what makes you think that?



But seriously now, I think Kael'thas screwed over Illidan first but Illidan was a failure, brooding and useless, so I don't blame him much. In reality both Illidan and Kael got screwed over by Blizzard writing hard in TBC, one made lolevil and the other an incompetent idiot. Illidan also didn't share that magical cure as mention before.
But again both characters were crippled in TBC and later Blizzard revealed they were sorry for wasting them like that (MFW when I heard that was grumpy cat with the caption "good, you deserve to be sorry").
I don't see base on TFT Kael's persona, why would he think Illidan is useless base on what did he receive from Illidan.
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Old 12-03-2013, 12:05 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Kael betrayed Illidan

Illidan went bonkers after Arthas defeated him and Kael got desperate I guess. Sucks that Blood of the Highborne didn't focus on Kael too.
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Old 12-03-2013, 12:32 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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There's your answer.
Yeah but there's a difference between being betrayed because you're misunderstood and people are jerks, and being betrayed because you refused to cure one of your allies of an addiction while enslaving another group of allies (Akama).

Illidari are made up of demons who are loyal to him for curing their addiction; Satyrs because reasons; Demon Hunters made up of both Elves because reasons; the Naga because reasons; and Loreology confirmed that the Fel Horde were loyal to him as well. Why, I'm not sure. But then we have the Blood Elves who left him along with the Broken who betrayed/broke free from him.

Just trying to figure out who's with who and why.
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  #13  
Old 12-03-2013, 04:28 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Yeah but there's a difference between being betrayed because you're misunderstood and people are jerks, and being betrayed because you refused to cure one of your allies of an addiction while enslaving another group of allies (Akama).

Illidari are made up of demons who are loyal to him for curing their addiction; Satyrs because reasons; Demon Hunters made up of both Elves because reasons; the Naga because reasons; and Loreology confirmed that the Fel Horde were loyal to him as well. Why, I'm not sure. But then we have the Blood Elves who left him along with the Broken who betrayed/broke free from him.

Just trying to figure out who's with who and why.
He did give the cure.
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Old 12-03-2013, 04:49 PM
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If I had to guess, Kil'jaeden probably manipulated the two into betraying each other.

Made Illidan think Kael was going to betray him so he wouldn't give Kael access to the magic pool he was using to cure his demons.

Then tells Kael about Illidan keeping the pool's access to demons so Kael betrays Illidan to KJ and can go make an even bigger and better pool.
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Old 12-03-2013, 07:49 PM
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If I had to guess, Kil'jaeden probably manipulated the two into betraying each other.

Made Illidan think Kael was going to betray him so he wouldn't give Kael access to the magic pool he was using to cure his demons.

Then tells Kael about Illidan keeping the pool's access to demons so Kael betrays Illidan to KJ and can go make an even bigger and better pool.
It doesn't matter, Kael had what he needed.
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Old 12-05-2013, 01:25 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
I don't see base on TFT Kael's persona, why would he think Illidan is useless base on what did he receive from Illidan.
Based on TFT, Kael got a gigantic infomercial from Vashj about Illidan being the best guy ever who can help the blood elves. Kael and Vashj saved Illidan from death, but all they got was "well, you can suck magic from demons, I guess... there's no actual cure from magic addiction AFAIK".

Well, that's one part of Illidan's usefulness gone. What else? Oh, right, he's the guy who can totally destroy Ner'zhul and the Scourge, giving the blood elves their revenge.

He failed at that, too. Now he's nothing but a half-crazed night elf barking out orders and trying to conquer the whole of Draenor. Of course Kael would be absolutely disappointed with the guy and label him useless - especially if the Netherstorm region is basically ripe mana to gather!


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He did give the cure.
Holy Hell, Slow, live it to rest. The Blizzard guys were foolish. They did not consider the implications. It was all a random part of a stupid Attunement chain. God!

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
and Loreology confirmed that the Fel Horde were loyal to him as well. Why, I'm not sure.
They've been loyal without any Loreology. Illidan has defeated Magtheridon, but instead of slaying the Pit Lord the orcs were tied to, he imprisoned him to make new fel orcs from Magth's blood and keep the Fel Horde via the demonic "Blood Pact".
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:09 AM
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I think I'm starting to understand things. Consider every major character we met in Outland:

Kael': backstabbed Illidan
Illidan: backstabbed KJ
Akama: backstabbed Illidan
GARROSH: backstabbed Thrall
even Thrall backstabbed the Horde by leaving it to Garrosh...

That's the secret! Outland's atmosphere contains the agent for Chronical Backstabbing Disorder!

But! Does that imply Draenor contained that selfsame agent, and that WoD will be a massive backstab-fest?

Does that imply the Naa'ru, Kadghar and all the other bigs names are actually playing us in a long con?

What does that mean for us? Rogues notwithstanding, did the PCs backstab anyone recently?
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:22 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I'm sure Kael would backstab KJ too, if given the chance.

Also, Mor'Ghor backstabbed Illidan to Sintharia.

The Naga are immune.
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:31 AM
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I'm sure Kael would backstab KJ too, if given the chance.

Also, Mor'Ghor backstabbed Illidan to Sintharia.

The Naga are immune.
The naga were helping Kael.
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:35 AM
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The naga were helping Kael.
Or did they?

*dun dun dun*

Speaking of good 'ole Vashj, I find it highly surprising that Vashj met Illidan, a pawn of the Legion, and decided "ah, that good ole' friend from before the Sundering sure looks like a valuable ally! Let's collaborate - no strings attached!"

That's decidedly very unlike what I'd expect from a noblewoman.
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:53 AM
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Speaking of good 'ole Vashj, I find it highly surprising that Vashj met Illidan, a pawn of the Legion, and decided "ah, that good ole' friend from before the Sundering sure looks like a valuable ally! Let's collaborate - no strings attached!"

That's decidedly very unlike what I'd expect from a noblewoman.
I think it was more than just ''good ol' friend'', if you know what I mean.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:06 AM
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I think it was more than just ''good ol' friend'', if you know what I mean.
Even then, I wouldn't peg Vashj as ambitioning to be arm-candy, even for one of the, if not THE mightiest Night Elf.

Then again, BC Lore is... annoying, to remain cordial.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:35 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Or did they?

*dun dun dun*
Well, they could have been sabotaging him or were just too stupid to realize whom he was serving.
I think her naga just like demons, though.

She seems to have joined Illidan because she "respected his power as a demon" and, according to the UVG, was loyal to him, so she wasn't in cahoots with Kael, and the Coilskar are stupid or acting on their own.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:02 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
The naga were helping Kael.
Hey, of course you help old friends! That's no betrayal (Illidan was already dead).


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Originally Posted by Sagara View Post
Or did they?

*dun dun dun*

Speaking of good 'ole Vashj, I find it highly surprising that Vashj met Illidan, a pawn of the Legion, and decided "ah, that good ole' friend from before the Sundering sure looks like a valuable ally! Let's collaborate - no strings attached!"
Well, it's not like he was prancing around screaming "HI, I'M ILLIDAN! LET'S ALL SERVE KIL'JAEDEN TOGETHER!". For everyone seeking heroics at his side, he'd just say that his quest is to kill the Lich King. So what if he was hired by KJ for the job. A noble goal is a noble goal nevertheless!

As for the Naga, there's the whole global warming plot point that got kinda forgotten as the Naga transformed from random water villains to dark (anti?)heroes as the campaigns proceeded.

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
She seems to have joined Illidan because she "respected his power as a demon" and, according to the UVG, was loyal to him, so she wasn't in cahoots with Kael, and the Coilskar are stupid or acting on their own.
Illidan was dead by that point, so I think it's no wonder that they went to the next best friend/Team Illidari Executive!

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I think it was more than just ''good ol' friend'', if you know what I mean.
No.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:56 AM
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Holy Hell, Slow, live it to rest. The Blizzard guys were foolish. They did not consider the implications. It was all a random part of a stupid Attunement chain. God!
Yeah, that's why I'm keep lashing them on this.
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