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Old 07-31-2018, 09:03 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Peger View Post
While I get the "Sylvanas has always been evil" sentiment, her cruelty and ruthlessness has always had a logic to it that is seemingly absent here. She stands nothing to gain from this tactically. Hell, she stands nothing to gain from attacking the Night Elves rather than the Humans; the whole explanation for starting the war in Kalimdor makes no sense.
Want to truly know someone? Give her power.

It was one thing for Sylvanas to lead the forsaken. Giving her the full mighty of the Horde is another. Then add azerite to the mix.

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
People on twitter and MMO Champion are already defending Sylvanas and saying she's not evil (I'm actually having a discussion with several people who say this is a) evidence that Sylvanas is a good person and will be redeemed, and another who argues that Sylvanas can't be considered evil, just misunderstood because she made a mistake). So it seems this debate is going to go on for awhile longer.
Lol, those people are crazy!

Anyway, I made this thread in the official forums and wanted to share with you:

Quote:
People misunderstood. Sylvanas was never meant to be "morally grey". From the beginning, she was always evil. Her Banshee Queen career started with her betraying an agreement with Garithos and slaughtering his army. From there, she experimented with prisoners, plague-bombed towns, raised undead, invaded a neutral kingdom, murdered innocent people, tried to enslave a demigoddess, killed loyal followers so they wouldn't spread hope to her people and, in a short story detailing her mindset, clearly only sees people as tools for her self-serving needs.

People didn't see it because they felt sympathy for her. Because she had a tragic story to "justify" it. Because she was desperate. Sylvanas is a tragic, sympathetic, cunning, charismatic character. But she's evil.

Evil can be tragic.
Evil can be sympathetic.
Evil can be charismatic.
Evil can be cunning enough to hide itself in plain sight.

And, just like real people couldn't see her for what it is, it's the same with the Horde. The Horde sees her a savior, as their Warchief, leading the fight against the hated enemy. The leaders may have doubts, but the people of the Horde do not. They want revenge. Revenge for sentencing the blood elves to die. Revenge for the internment camps. For Taurajo and the atrocities in the Barrens. For the scorn against the forsaken. To the people, it doesn't matter if it was Garrosh's, Arthas', Garithos' or the old Horde's fault: the Alliance did it. They fear the Alliance, they hate the Alliance, they want to be safe, and Sylvanas gives them that.

So, where's the "morally grey"? It's in what's to come. It's about how far the Horde will still go for hatred before they start realising what they became. It's about how far the Alliance will go in its reaction.

For three times, the Alliance broke the cycle of hatred. When Jaina sacrificed her father. When she teleported the Alliance troops out of Undercity, sacrificing victory for peace. When Varian decided to end the bloodshed after the SIege of Orgrimmar.

This is different from MoP. Back then, the Horde only turned on Garrosh after Garrosh had turned on the Horde's races. They fought Garrosh not for redemption, but for the Horde. In the end, the Alliance spared the Horde, despite victory being within its grasp.

Now, the Alliance has no more reason to hold its punches. Varian is gone. Jaina gave up on peace. Now it's full war. How far you need to go before retribution becomes atrocity?

And how can the cycle end? Only the Horde can end it. By sacrificing itself so it can save the Alliance. And that's what I think this is all about: the Alliance is going to be crushed. And then, someone in the Horde will rise to save.

I'd bet on Saurfang, one of the generals of the original Horde, who rampaged in the Eastern Kingdoms and commited countless atrocities, finally having his so desired warrior death. And he will do it for the Alliance. Then, maybe his sacrifice will make some people in the Horde realise what they are doing.
-----------------------------------

Stepping aside from the main topic, there were a few things that really bothered me in this:

- The scene between Saurfang, Malfurion, Sylvanas and Tyrande was not improved. Saurfang still acts like a coward. Sylvenas is s till a Bond villain. Tyrande still leaves the night elves to their fate. I had hopes that part would get slightly improved somehow. That scene made all of them look really stupid, IMO.

- THe Horde using catapults to fire up the tree. Would be better if it were the ships and airships doing it with some azerite weaponry. The catapults were really ridiculous, and no way they could fire over that distance and put that huge tree on fire by themselves.
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  #6202  
Old 07-31-2018, 11:54 PM
kobebyarlant kobebyarlant is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
And that's why, no matter what the current controversy of the month may be, Cata will always be the epitome of bad WoW writing to me. People actually want to talk about the Burning of Teldrassil. Cata just resulted in... apathy. Remember when we waited 7 years for an Indiana Jones parody? Or how the entire endgame story experience revolved around how cool and amazing and awesome Thrall was, and how lucky we were to join him?

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  #6203  
Old 08-01-2018, 01:18 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Where do I buy these super long range nuclear catapults?
Nogg's Machine Shop, they have them in stock.

But there is a 30 day waiting period, there have been a lot of cases of mass killings so regulation was put in place.



Anyway that was as bad as I thought it would be, going all Hitler on the night elves because someone hurt her fee fees.
I mean how people think that does not lead into a SoO 2.0 is beyond me.

At best we can get a "lolcorrupted by the old gods" possibly when she died, maybe what came back was never the real Sylvanas but that is so implausible and cheap at this point. Partly related and partly an alternative she can pull a Putress and betray the Horde dramatically causing her to become a neutral pinata but that is still a SoO 2.0 from the PoV of the loyalist Horde.
As I've said several times, I do not see this ending well. There was no way it could end well as soon as it was announced. Jesus Christ, just when I think Blizz writing can't get any worse they ingeniously find ways to break new ground. It is kind of fascinating, train wreck kind of fascinating, but fascinating all the same.

PS. Verdande and Quaero, nice blasts from the past there
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  #6204  
Old 08-01-2018, 01:48 AM
Quaero Quaero is offline

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PS. Verdande and Quaero, nice blasts from the past there
things were buzzing hard with the whole cinematic, so I decided to drop by and see how stuff was on this end.
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  #6205  
Old 08-01-2018, 02:04 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
If a video game story directly attacks the player's motivation to play that video game, and does so effectively, I think it's fair to call it ill-conceived.
Technically, you are right. Not from a purely writer perspective though, in that case, that tweet indeed has a point. Then again, medium matters, and World of Warcraft is not a book, it is an MMORPG.

You might be asking, if I am technically right, why bring the part about the tweet having a point out? Well, simply because it beautifully illustrates the major issue with Battle for Azeroth. Of course, there are writing blunders, that is pretty much the norm for Blizzard after all these years. But the writing in itself is not the main reason of the outrage. It is that the writing is simply unsuitable for this medium, for several reasons.

First, the game is simply not built for telling war stories in a compelling way. It has been shown over and over again, even Legion despite being far better accepted by the fans had the very same issue when it came to portrayal of larger conflicts in-game. The Broken Shore did not feel like the largest battle (and in turn defeat) between the forces of Azeroth and the Legion in history, just like the War of Thorns does not feel like a massive and costly campaign.

Second, and that is the major issue is that Blizzard seems inclined to not only tell war stories with this expansion, but bittersweet war stories. Is there an issue with this? Generally, no, these sort of stories tend to be very compelling (so long as they are well written, but that is given). The issue is that they are not for everyone. And given the way players engage with the game, the way the medium works, there are not many players in this sort of hollowness. At least not in relation to the game.
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  #6206  
Old 08-01-2018, 02:58 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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I've returned to ask a simple question and see if any of you fine people have a satisfying answer.
When Malfurion commanded the wisps to make a wall to halt the Horde advance, why didn't he sent them to detonate a la Archimonde against Sylvanas instead?
I dunno about any fine people around here but my guess is A.) there wouldn't be a Faction War if he did or B.) killing Archimonde required all the whisps to detonate in one place. While the resulting blast was powerful i believe ingame-scale (depending on whether Blizzard feels like scaling that day) has something to do with it - sure, he probably could have taken out Sylvanas but she WAS commanding an army, probably a widespread one. Best case scenario he's killing Sylvanas, Saurfang, and most of her troops, and invites retribution. (And sacrifices a ton of whisps for one important target, which he'll lack with the next attack.) Worst case scenario he gets Sylvanas, Saurfang and maybe a couple more catapults. And a PISSED OFF rest of the army once they're back on their feet. Frankly the Wall Of Death was perfect, he just didn't know Sylvanas could negate it. Somehow. Because she's a mage now. Or something.

edit: Has anyone else noticed that Nathanos in the cinematic looked like Doctor Krieger?
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  #6207  
Old 08-01-2018, 03:57 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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As a Horde player, I really enjoyed the Burning of Teldrassil.

I also really liked Sylvanas' Warbringers short.
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  #6208  
Old 08-01-2018, 04:23 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Technically, you are right. Not from a purely writer perspective though, in that case, that tweet indeed has a point. Then again, medium matters, and World of Warcraft is not a book, it is an MMORPG.

You might be asking, if I am technically right, why bring the part about the tweet having a point out? Well, simply because it beautifully illustrates the major issue with Battle for Azeroth. Of course, there are writing blunders, that is pretty much the norm for Blizzard after all these years. But the writing in itself is not the main reason of the outrage. It is that the writing is simply unsuitable for this medium, for several reasons.

First, the game is simply not built for telling war stories in a compelling way. It has been shown over and over again, even Legion despite being far better accepted by the fans had the very same issue when it came to portrayal of larger conflicts in-game. The Broken Shore did not feel like the largest battle (and in turn defeat) between the forces of Azeroth and the Legion in history, just like the War of Thorns does not feel like a massive and costly campaign.

Second, and that is the major issue is that Blizzard seems inclined to not only tell war stories with this expansion, but bittersweet war stories. Is there an issue with this? Generally, no, these sort of stories tend to be very compelling (so long as they are well written, but that is given). The issue is that they are not for everyone. And given the way players engage with the game, the way the medium works, there are not many players in this sort of hollowness. At least not in relation to the game.
I think that's a good way of putting it. Yes, this sort of story could be just fine for something like a book, or even an RTS, where the player is far more detached and where notions of balancing roles in an MMORPG doesn't matter. But this IS an MMORPG, and that fact must be taken into account.
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  #6209  
Old 08-01-2018, 05:00 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I think that's a good way of putting it. Yes, this sort of story could be just find for something like a book, or even an RTS, where the player is far more detached and where notions of balancing roles in an MMORPG doesn't matter. But this IS an MMORPG, and that fact must be taken into account.
Oh absolutely. My point was simply just that the underlying issue is not "bad writing" as some people put it, but the overall design, which is both misjudged and miscalculated.
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  #6210  
Old 08-01-2018, 05:22 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Commander Rotal View Post
Frankly the Wall Of Death was perfect, he just didn't know Sylvanas could negate it. Somehow. Because she's a mage now. Or something.
Every single person pointing out Sylvanas' "new powers" should read the first chapters of Before the Storm. This attitude is coming out as quite stupid to be honest.
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  #6211  
Old 08-01-2018, 05:37 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Oh absolutely. My point was simply just that the underlying issue is not "bad writing" as some people put it, but the overall design, which is both misjudged and miscalculated.
Porque no los dos?




As for the whisps issue, recall in-game when whisps detonated they burned mana. In the lore at the time demons were beings of pure magic from the realm of magic. So I always concluded Archimonde was taken out by a giant anti-magic version of EMP. Sylvanas and especially her troopers are not infused with magic enough to be affected by a whisp detonation like Archie was, it might have slight or no effect on them.

Ofc if whisps now can make a death wall why not also a death wave, Indiana Jones style? Because Blizz writing is terrible as well as poorly planned, it can be both Marth
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  #6212  
Old 08-01-2018, 06:15 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I'm in love with these memes



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  #6213  
Old 08-01-2018, 06:49 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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So TLDR Sylvie is an emotionally unstable bitch who throws out her own plans of taking hostages becuz "muh hope."
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  #6214  
Old 08-01-2018, 07:31 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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So, I have to say I was wrong (I honestly thought the Alliance was gonna go scorched earth) and my wife took great pleasure in the I told you so’s. To be fair she almost never gets to do that when it comes to video games.

I think Deicide probably has a pretty solid analysis of the situation.

In the meantime, my reactions:

1. As a real person in the real world: nice job getting the player base riled up Blizz.

2. As a predominately Horde player: Dammit Blizz, this better not be Garrosh 2.0.

3. As an arm-chair strategist: kinda dumb move Sylvanas. You yourself say that this move of yours only halfway accomplishes your goals. This mistake will cost you the Undercity. I suppose we’ve found her true weakness: she still can let her emotions get the better of her. It doesn’t seem to happen often, but when it does it is quite severe and usually extremely homicidal.

4. As a Speculator: Sylvanas is the Enemy of Life. According to Malfurion, the Horde is “in the service of Death.” At the end of 3 Sisters Sylvanas says “All will serve Death!” Yeah, I’m calling “World of Warcraft: Requiem” as the next expansion.

I think I’ll put up a different thread in regards to Sylvanas character arc and fate.
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  #6215  
Old 08-01-2018, 08:14 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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A few thoughts to complement Menel'dirion's:
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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
1. As a real person in the real world: nice job getting the player base riled up Blizz.
I'm kinda surprised that Blizzard has been so bold with the story. To me, the best outcome is the one we got: Sylvanas reveals her true colors, there's no reason for the war to be held back. There's no secret plot, no outside conspirator, no one playing both factions against each other. The Alliance can't hold back anymore, and the Horde can't go back.

It has a huge backlash from the comunity, but it sets up a stronger story than making Azshara or N'Zoth were the real villains.

Quote:
2. As a predominately Horde player: Dammit Blizz, this better not be Garrosh 2.0.
While this feels like Garrosh 2.0, I think Blizzard is purposely doing something different. It starts similar, but it will deviate soon.

For one, I don't expect the Horde to turn against Sylvanas. She's way smarter than Garrosh, and she set up a situation where the Horde needs to stay together and fight, or face destruction, because the Alliance won't hold back at all. Also, the Alliance will start doing shady things. Anduin will lose control of it, at least for a while.

As I said earlier, I'd make the Alliance kill Sylvanas mid-expansion. Not as a raid boss, but in an event, and in a very costly way that would leave the Alliance very vulnerable. They'd be expecting that Sylvanas' death would stop the Horde, but she dies in a way that makes the Horde see her as a hero, and the war gets even worse. By that point, the conflict would have enough momentum to keep sustaining itself.

Quote:
3. As an arm-chair strategist: kinda dumb move Sylvanas. You yourself say that this move of yours only halfway accomplishes your goals. This mistake will cost you the Undercity. I suppose we’ve found her true weakness: she still can let her emotions get the better of her. It doesn’t seem to happen often, but when it does it is quite severe and usually extremely homicidal.
As far as we know, she planned the fall of Undercity. She's counting on the Alliance counter-attack and will blow everything up. We don't know how the Alliance will escape that trap (I feel that Jaina or Alleria will be the one Sylvanas hasn't accounted for). We will know for sure next week, when the cinematics are available.

About her outburst, if it were up to me, I wouldn't make her sound enraged. Instead, I'd made her cold. "Burn it", she would say calmly. Saurfang would reply something, as if he couldn't believe it. "Burn it", she would repeat, just as calm as the first time.

But maybe her losing her temper is indeed a plot point. A weakness that will result in her downfall. I'm not sure about it, but it's a strong possibility.

Quote:
4. As a Speculator: Sylvanas is the Enemy of Life. According to Malfurion, the Horde is “in the service of Death.” At the end of 3 Sisters Sylvanas says “All will serve Death!” Yeah, I’m calling “World of Warcraft: Requiem” as the next expansion.
The comic also has that ominous void whisper saying Sylvanas serves the true enemy.
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  #6216  
Old 08-01-2018, 08:29 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Sylvanas serves Bwonsamdi.

She will lead an army of Loa against the Old Gods.
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  #6217  
Old 08-01-2018, 09:31 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I wouldn't be getting my hopes up, but what Deicide suggests would be both a logical and generally a good way progress.
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  #6218  
Old 08-01-2018, 10:03 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Worst case scenario he gets Sylvanas, Saurfang and maybe a couple more catapults. And a PISSED OFF rest of the army once they're back on their feet.
The thing is, precedent has established that the Horde doesn't do this. They don't get pissed off about losing a Warchief.

The Alliance is the faction with a history of becoming outraged and galvanized at the deaths of their leaders and seeking retribution, because their concepts of war are wrapped up in the injustice of every Alliance life that's lost.

The Horde is the faction whose leaders are such a crutch and such a focus for their collective confidence that whenever a Warchief falls in battle (as opposed to being killed by his replacement), the whole operation grinds to a halt and the faction questions whether it should bother fighting for the sake of a Warchief who just proved he was too weak to lead.

For much of the Horde - especially the orcs, in whose cultural mindset the very role of Warchief is steeped - the worthiness of a cause is proven after the fact, by whether it was won or lost. So a dead Sylvanas would call into question for them whether the invasion was even worth starting in the first place, let alone continuing, if the Warchief who commanded it couldn't even keep herself alive to see it through.
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  #6219  
Old 08-01-2018, 10:15 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
The thing is, precedent has established that the Horde doesn't do this. They don't get pissed off about losing a Warchief.

The Alliance is the faction with a history of becoming outraged and galvanized at the deaths of their leaders and seeking retribution, because their concepts of war are wrapped up in the injustice of every Alliance life that's lost.

The Horde is the faction whose leaders are such a crutch and such a focus for their collective confidence that whenever a Warchief falls in battle (as opposed to being killed by his replacement), the whole operation grinds to a halt and the faction questions whether it should bother fighting for the sake of a Warchief who just proved he was too weak to lead.

For much of the Horde - especially the orcs, in whose cultural mindset the very role of Warchief is steeped - the worthiness of a cause is proven after the fact, by whether it was won or lost. So a dead Sylvanas would call into question for them whether the invasion was even worth starting in the first place, let alone continuing, if the Warchief who commanded it couldn't even keep herself alive to see it through.
There's two ways to avoid this, thought.

One, is if the Warchief is taken out in a way that is perceived as dishonorable. A strong and respected chieftain that is beaten by a treacherous or cowardly tactic may still have enough posthumous influence to keep the troops fighting for his cause.

The other is if there's a strong second-in-command able to assume the Warchief mantle, proving himself by fighting against the odds and turning that defeat into victory. All he needs is to shout "For the Horde" or "Victory or Death" after his deed for the entire Horde to follow his example.
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  #6220  
Old 08-01-2018, 10:38 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
I'm kinda surprised that Blizzard has been so bold with the story. To me, the best outcome is the one we got: Sylvanas reveals her true colors, there's no reason for the war to be held back. There's no secret plot, no outside conspirator, no one playing both factions against each other. The Alliance can't hold back anymore, and the Horde can't go back.

It has a huge backlash from the comunity, but it sets up a stronger story than making Azshara or N'Zoth were the real villains.


Oh, my sweet summer child... Sometimes Blizzard are so obvious with their "twists" it physically hurts. The "Loa" that whispered to Vol'jin are actually Old Gods, come on now!

It will be revealed in the last major patch when Thrall brings Vol'jin's urn to Zandalar to commune with the Loa but he can't possibly do this sooner as it will ruin the twist.
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Old 08-01-2018, 11:05 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Oh, my sweet summer child... Sometimes Blizzard are so obvious with their "twists" it physically hurts. The "Loa" that whispered to Vol'jin are actually Old Gods, come on now!
I've predicted this as well, actually. Yesterday, in a MMO-C thread.

But even if it turns out to be true, that N'Zoth was the "Loa" influencing Vol'jin in his last moments, it in no way reduces Sylvanas' responsability. Vol'jin was made a pawn and made a mistake. The worst possible person is put in the Warchief position. That Warchief commits heinous crimes.

It's subtle manipulation, rather than the standard in-your-face "I got corrupted and now want to see the world end! Watch as I grow tentacles now!" Old God stuff.

It also does not diminish the Horde's responsibility for blindly following its Warchief.

Quote:
It will be revealed in the last major patch when Thrall brings Vol'jin's urn to Zandalar to commune with the Loa but he can't possibly do this sooner as it will ruin the twist.
It will be before that. Vol'jin appears as a Loa in 8.0. I don't think the reveal will take that long (if there's a reveal, but I think there's need for an explanation about why she was appointed Warchief).

------------------------------

I don't expect BfA to be perfect, but Blizzard is doing some bold moves that a few weeks back I would consider the "best but not likely" outcomes, so it renewed my interest in the story.

Another thing to note is that, so far, the raids are all side-stories. Threats not directly related the war. I think this is a good sign that the war story won't just be solved with raid bosses. Blizzard storytelling is far from perfect, but its techniques have been improved with each expansion. They also have commited to use supplementary media and to use cinematics that are not related to raids.

While I'm certain Blizzard will commit misteps (void elf introduction and mag'har being AU are some of the glaring examples I'll always be bothered with), IMO, this war has a chance to have a satisfying arc and a good pay-off. Let's see how Blizzard will fare.
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  #6222  
Old 08-01-2018, 11:22 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Gortrash View Post


Oh, my sweet summer child... Sometimes Blizzard are so obvious with their "twists" it physically hurts. The "Loa" that whispered to Vol'jin are actually Old Gods, come on now!

It will be revealed in the last major patch when Thrall brings Vol'jin's urn to Zandalar to commune with the Loa but he can't possibly do this sooner as it will ruin the twist.
Blizz isn’t that subtle. Besides, at this point, the Void (you know, the power behind the Old Gods) wants Sylvanas dead. It fears Sylvanas.
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Old 08-01-2018, 12:27 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
PS. Verdande and Quaero, nice blasts from the past there
I graduated, and had some time to catch up with WoW, and to read up on the latest novel. After the whole Calia reveal, it turns out that Fojar was right about there being a sizable Lordaeron survivors population, so I had to return to congratulate him.

Also, the memes for these trailers have been on point.

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Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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Old 08-01-2018, 01:31 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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So what you're saying is... Archimonde didn't need to bother with all of that Battle of Mount Hyjal stuff. He just needed to buy himself one of them nifty super long range orcish catapults?
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Old 08-01-2018, 02:08 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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This thread is worth a read:





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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
So what you're saying is... Archimonde didn't need to bother with all of that Battle of Mount Hyjal stuff. He just needed to buy himself one of them nifty super long range orcish catapults?
He could've destroyed Teldrassil as easily as he destroyed Dalaran.

That wasn't his goal.
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