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  #1  
Old 12-09-2013, 06:42 PM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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Default Great Dungeons and Raids

I can easily say that the Orgrimmar-portion of the Siege of Orgrimmar raid is one of my favorite raids in WoW. The idea of storming a citadel is really what these raids are about; the feeling of going into Garrosh's underground bunker (which itself felt like a city) was very pleasing. On the other hand, it is still a bit lacking in the "expansive" department like LBRS and BRD was; both dungeons were absolutely huge and had many different non-linear approaches to them with living quarters and what not off to the side in hallways, etc.

I think it's important for the atmosphere to feel like a raid. ToC, while fun, didn't feel like a raid. Similarly, the one-boss loot piatas such as Onyxia, Gruul, Malygos, etc. weren't designed as fully-fledged raids and shouldn't be considered as such.

I think the reason why Dragon Soul got so much hate was because it doesn't feel like a raid at all. It really should have been more of an outdoor boss/event.

Note: I got tired while typing this up so just bear with me until the morning when I will finish it up.
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:50 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Upper Blackrock Spire was my favorite, though I never got to see it in its prime.

Lower blackrock spire was annoying and terrible and a pain to navigate but

UBRS, was fantastic, it had a diverse set of mobs, the final boss made an appearance early on and demonstrated that he was a threat, the Blackrock's in general felt like a dangerous and powerful clan, the place felt like a fort with a mad science lab mixed in.

Had a similar feeling with Black Temple.
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:10 PM
Stormcaller Stormcaller is offline

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I'd expect to be in the minority here but I like the 1/2 boss 'lair' raids. In some cases I even prefer them to the world boss model Blizzard uses now. They should never be the main raid of a patch though. Which is my biggest issue with ToC. If It was accompanying another raid then it would have been fantastic because (at least to me) the bosses were all diverse and fun to fight and even the whole arena thing worked for a bit but the novelty died quick.

I like Maraudon, it's gross, it's dank, it's dark and ancient and it all fits together. Then after you clear both wings that both have all those properties in their own way you go into Earthsong Falls which to me just feels like a microcosm of what ancient Azeroth might have been like with elementals and giant creatures all wandering around.

Other then that is Stratholme. Especially before the split, it was the street-to-street fighting I was really hoping for in Siege of Orgrimmar with this just incredibly oppressive and evil atmosphere which for a Wacraft 3 player helps you to remember 'Oh shit, I caused this'. Even the Scarlet section had it as if they were just barely holding on and still fanatically fighting anyone, living or dead, that crosses them.

Last edited by Stormcaller; 12-09-2013 at 07:12 PM..
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:10 PM
Volkrin Volkrin is offline

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Mogu'Shan palace is an absolutely beautiful raid. It's part of why I like the mogu so much: for all their brutality, for all their cruelty, they were obviously an artistic people with a surprisingly elegant aesthetic style. It makes them into so much more than the simple brutes they could have been, and what so many other villainous factions are reduced to. The same dungeon also had some of the best encounters (tanking-wise at least) that I can recall.

The remade Zul'Gurub was just... magnificent, I really have no other words. Aesthetically, it was alright, but from a gameplay and fun perspective it was a genuine triumph. Between the surprisingly fun trash, the various traps and environmental hazards, the horde of minibosses, the interesting boss mechanics, and the unique element of the cauldrons spaced throughout the city, I've come to consider if the gold standard for dungeon design. Speaking of the cauldrons, they were an incredibly clever way of easing the player into what would otherwise be a sheer cliff face of a learning curve in the Zanzil encounter.

I wasn't raiding when Karazhan was current content, but since the introduction of Raiding With Leashes II I've grown to love the place, with its creepy weirdness and immense complexity. It feels like so much more than the boss tubes that raids have become.

Ulduar was beautiful. It had its issues; it was way too bloody long for a single raid and ToC came out way too soon, but ultimately I think Ulduar is one of the most visually impressive raids in the game (and I still giggle at my memories of using Mimiron's little bomb bots to murder my guildies).
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:16 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Volkrin View Post

Ulduar was beautiful. It had its issues; it was way too bloody long for a single raid and ToC came out way too soon, but ultimately I think Ulduar is one of the most visually impressive raids in the game (and I still giggle at my memories of using Mimiron's little bomb bots to murder my guildies).
Oh Gosh how did I forget Ulduar
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:12 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Well of Eternity is my absolute favorite instance in the entire game, counting both raids and dungeons. It's just... everything about it is fantastic. It's not too long, it covers one of my favorite periods in Warcraft's history, and the details are extremely accurate to the books right down to the Shadowbats and the blown up tower. Illidan's and Malfurion's dialogue at the end is even identical.

MSV, Karazhan, and Ulduar were already listed and I liked them. Throne of Thunder can also be added to my list of favorite raids. I just love the Mogu in general.

And I know I'm in the minority, but I really do like Dragon Soul. It didn't feel much like we were raiding anything, I agree with that, but it felt suitably... "epic." I can't think of a less clich word, but that's how I felt about DS. You guys can't honestly tell me you didn't get even a little excited chasing Deathwing down and fighting on his back and the ending it with the Maelstrom during a storm, can you?
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:52 PM
Volkrin Volkrin is offline

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And I know I'm in the minority, but I really do like Dragon Soul. It didn't feel much like we were raiding anything, I agree with that, but it felt suitably... "epic." I can't think of a less clich word, but that's how I felt about DS. You guys can't honestly tell me you didn't get even a little excited chasing Deathwing down and fighting on his back and the ending it with the Maelstrom during a storm, can you?
As an event it was cool (barring a few... questionable decisions. Magic penny and all that), but I just can't look back on it fondly as a raid. It was pretty miserable to tank, and (though this is hardly an objective measure of quality) it lasted way too long.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:05 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Well of Eternity... the details are extremely accurate to the books
Of all the books to be accurate to, though...
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:13 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Karazhan - because it's awesome, and because it's where I really cut my teeth raiding. Played that raid all through BC.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:59 PM
Afaslizo Afaslizo is offline

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I was allways a fan of BRD, as a giant city even if takes an eternity to clear.

Beyond that, Maraudon is beautiful as well, then Stratholme of old because of the rares, secrets and flair.

In BC my favorite dungeons were the Underbog, Auchenai Crypts and Botanica. And I loved the Sunwell.

In Wrath it was Ulduar, in Cata Firelands. In Mists it is Heart of Fear as I love Mantis.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:01 PM
Shroombie Shroombie is offline

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A fan of both Drakkari dungeons, surprise surprise.
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:06 AM
Shadowsong Shadowsong is offline

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My favorites are Firelands&Throne of Thunder. They had really cool themes and the bosses were pretty fun. I also really liked how they both had a zone contributing to the build up to the actual raid, and they both had pretty epic final bosses.
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:23 AM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Gonna get flak for this, but one of my favorite dungeon is the remade ZG.

I hate that it was just a remake mind you, but, I feel it's a standard other dungeons should strive for: optional bosses, optional mini-bosses with drops, quest that gets you none-stat gear and takes you outside of the dungeons, flavorful, none-combat shit everywhere. It was like a Troll BRD, which is my second favorite dungeon.

Dungeons that can be explored, dungeons with options, dungeons where you can choose which order to do things: those are the best. Those are typically the favorite raids of an expansion, rather than the straight line places.

Kara, Ulduar, ICC, Firelands, MoP didn't have one. Something about designing a raid while not having to make it a straight lines causes for much more interesting areas.
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:26 AM
Volkrin Volkrin is offline

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Ooh, another great dungeon: Throne of Tides. Beautiful art, fun bosses, cool layout, and - if you can delude yourself into thinking that Blizz will ever follow up on Neptulon - a pretty effective and tone-consistent continuation of my favorite zone in the game.
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:42 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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There's been many Dungeons and Raids in every version of the game (including Vanilla, for all it's faults) I've loved to pieces. Both from a gameplay point of view and a lore/fluff/aesthetic stance. That said, I'll share a few of my favourites!

Black Temple - Raided there for months as part of a TBC guild, was fun and challenging without being too extreme. Illidan took some time to get the hang of but it was an immense feeling when we downed him.

The lore of the place spoke for itself, the history of it from Draenei/Orc period, the place Illidan had made it in his madness. The music is still one of the best pieces for any WoW setting to date.

---------------

Temple of Ahn'Qiraj(AQ40) - This place was hard, at a time when raiding was fairly hard. If only because of the logistics of 40 man raiding.

Downing C'Thun pre 2.0 is still my proudest PVE moment in WoW. Such teamwork, such execution!

Place was creepy as fuck, great music/sound. The voice files were pretty good too, C'Thun's constant whispering soundbites were immense. First time I heard them I shat bricks.

Twin Emperors provided one of my favourite quotes/soundfiles to date: "YOUR FATE IS SEALED!" - on killing a player

----------------

Halls of Reflection - Was great to see Falric and Marwyn get some facetime. And their quotes/fluff were brilliant.

Running away from the Lich King was a brilliant "boss" fight. You wouldn't expect it to work but it really does. Closest I've come in a game to feeling like I did when watching Slasher Horror Movies as a kid (classic ones like Halloween I mean) - music was fantastic again.

That'll do, there's too many to name really! Blizzard, for all their faults, know how to design immersive PVE instances. (Not saying they always pull it off perfectly heh, they've slipped at times as has every Dev)
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Old 12-10-2013, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkrin View Post
Mogu'Shan palace is an absolutely beautiful raid. It's part of why I like the mogu so much: for all their brutality, for all their cruelty, they were obviously an artistic people with a surprisingly elegant aesthetic style. It makes them into so much more than the simple brutes they could have been, and what so many other villainous factions are reduced to. The same dungeon also had some of the best encounters (tanking-wise at least) that I can recall.
Em... you mean dungeon? Mogu'Shan palace is the dungeon (the bickering clans and the current Mogu "emperor" Xin), Mogu'Shan Vaults is the raid (the secret, forgotten titan base). Anyways, i agree with you, the mogu are unique in that way, and it's a shame that we will never ever hear of them after Mists of Pandaria

My favorite would be... ICC. It's the one that was current when I started, saw everyone pumped to kill Arthas (I dont know if people were excited to kill Illidude or Kael'tas, but they absolutely were for the Lich King), read a lot of people interested in the world first race, and all that hype ended up being contagious
On top of that, the design of the raid, and the RP inside! Tirion claiming "This is our final stand, heroes!", Saurfang having to watch his son transformed into a monster, then acting like the hero/father he is, the over the top but extremely effective RP at the Lich King, even the outside zone full of quests that complement the story that ends inside the raid (I started when 3.3 was already out, so to me, the whole zone was experienced at the same time the raid was happening)... then there were some really epic fights (still remember the many many MANY attempts to kill Putricide... many times at 5% or less) and cool bosses (Marrowgar has a cool design, Lana'thel, Sindy...)

ICC was a good time to be a WoW player
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:41 AM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Of all the books to be accurate to, though...
Ehh, WotA is far from perfect but I have a soft spot in my heart for it. It was the first Warcraft book I read and my first real exposure to the lore. I mean I had played a couple of the games before reading it, but that was the first time I sat down to understand the story.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.

Last edited by Reignac; 12-10-2013 at 01:55 PM..
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:37 AM
Volkrin Volkrin is offline

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Em... you mean dungeon? Mogu'Shan palace is the dungeon (the bickering clans and the current Mogu "emperor" Xin), Mogu'Shan Vaults is the raid (the secret, forgotten titan base). Anyways, i agree with you, the mogu are unique in that way, and it's a shame that we will never ever hear of them after Mists of Pandaria
Yes I did mean MSV, that said: a lot of my praise applies to MSP as well. The encounters in the five-man are pretty cool too.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:46 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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ToC and ToC.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:05 PM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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I'd expect to be in the minority here but I like the 1/2 boss 'lair' raids. In some cases I even prefer them to the world boss model Blizzard uses now. They should never be the main raid of a patch though. Which is my biggest issue with ToC. If It was accompanying another raid then it would have been fantastic because (at least to me) the bosses were all diverse and fun to fight and even the whole arena thing worked for a bit but the novelty died quick.
The smaller boss raids absolutely have a place in the game. I agree with you on how they are sometimes a better "world boss". Wrath showed what fun they can bring to the players. There were, what, four different small raids? Five if you count RS. I remember always having people call up for Ony/OS/VA (when it spawned). These were very good bite-sized raids but I don't think they should be grouped with the tier raids like ICC, ToT, etc. BC's small raids (Mag, Gruul) were incredibly fun as well.
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Old 12-11-2013, 07:35 AM
Temo Temo is offline

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Originally Posted by mjbmitch View Post
The smaller boss raids absolutely have a place in the game. I agree with you on how they are sometimes a better "world boss". Wrath showed what fun they can bring to the players. There were, what, four different small raids? Five if you count RS. I remember always having people call up for Ony/OS/VA (when it spawned). These were very good bite-sized raids but I don't think they should be grouped with the tier raids like ICC, ToT, etc. BC's small raids (Mag, Gruul) were incredibly fun as well.
I don't know. World bosses are more convenient than one-boss raids. Anyone can join and it does help for alts

Now if it's more like Terrace of the Eternal Spring raids, then im ok with those :3
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:56 AM
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Karazhan with a group who knows the bosses.
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Old 12-11-2013, 12:04 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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I don't know. World bosses are more convenient than one-boss raids. Anyone can join and it does help for alts

Now if it's more like Terrace of the Eternal Spring raids, then im ok with those :3
World bosses are more convenient and accessible, but the design complexity takes a hit. I don't think you could really do Onyxia as a world boss and have it still be challenging, because you'd just see people zerging the whelps to keep the air phase from being too difficult.

Lair-style raids serve a purpose when it comes to giving the encounter designers a stage to work with and more known quantities in terms of what the raid composition is going to be. With world-bosses, there's less freedom on the stage and sky's the limit on who the hell is coming in to a single encounter.

Magtheridon as a lair boss? Makes sense. Gruul as a lair boss? I feel like he would have been great to see walking about Outland like a big brown fel reaver, and all you'd need to do is accelerate his Growth rate and he'd become difficult to zerg down. The Maulgar council fight in front of Gruul felt like a proper raid encounter, but Gruul himself could have been a proper world boss.
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:37 PM
mjbmitch mjbmitch is offline

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I will probably get kicked off the forums for saying this but I think Blizzard should keep the "in your face" lore out of dungeons (and raids in most cases). It makes the actual dungeon, in my opinion, more mystifying when you learn all of the lore inside the dungeon.

I always think of the ol' late night DnD scenario: a group of adventurers finds themselves in <dungeon name>. The old Deadmines was a great example of how little lore dungeons could give off the bat. Players would really have to investigate it in order to find out the backstory, etc.

The more chronological dungeons (i.e. End Time,
Well of Eternity, Hour of Twilight) only make sense when grouped together, and even then it's assumed that players already know exactly what they're dealing with because they were supposed to have completed the breadcrumb quests. The further along players go in the dungeon, the faster the story develops.

I don't know about you guys, but I like my dungeons as close to generic as possible with added backstory that is worth wanting to learn about instead of being force-fed the lore through cinematics.
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:32 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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My all-time favourite raid is probably Heart of Fear. I just LOVE the Mantid design, the score and the encounters were excellent, downing Empress for the first time was a blast.

Right after that comes Naxxramas Classic. Naxx was simply a mindblowing raid, and hands down the best 40 man. It's sad that so few got to really experience it before the (bad) revamp in WotLK. The score is probably my favourite in WoW, pretty much every boss had a new and sometimes puzzling mechanic that became "standard" in raids going forward, and...we were fighting Kel'Thuzad, DAT LAUGH omg DAT LAUGH.

ICC, Ulduar, Throne of Thunder and Siege of Orgrimmar all rank very highly with me as well.
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