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  #251  
Old 06-14-2017, 01:38 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Time to give my beloved Civ3 traits one more run. They include Militaristic, Expansionist, Scientific, Religious, Industrious, Commercial, Agricultural, and Seafaring.

Sometimes I use Scientific for arcane/warlock, Religious for holy magic (only on Dalaran, turns out), and Agricultural for shaman/nature.

Every combination has been utilized.

* * * * *

THE ALLIANCE

Nation of Azeroth (Industrious, Seafaring)
(note: specifically the 2nd War Era refugee nation of Azeroth)

Nation of Lordaeron (Religious, Commercial)

Nation of Stromgarde (Militaristic, Commercial)

Nation of Kul Tiras (Seafaring, Commercial)

Nation of Gilneas (Industrious, Commercial)

Nation of Dalaran (Scientific, Religious)

Nation of Alterac (Agricultural, Commercial)

Nation of Quel'Thalas (Agricultural, Seafaring)
(note: specifically the Farstrider corps, the rangers and sailors who saw the most action at this time)

Nation of Khaz Modan (Industrious, Expansionist)

Nation of Gnomeregan (Scientific, Industrious)

Nation of Aerie Peak (Industrious, Agricultural)

THE HORDE

Blackrock Clan (Militaristic, Seafaring)
(note: specifically the 2nd War Era harbinger of the tides of darkness)

Stormreaver Clan (Scientific, Seafaring)

Twilight's Hammer Clan (Religious, Seafaring)

Black Tooth Grin Clan (Militaristic, Industrious)

Bleeding Hollow Clan (Religious, Expansionist)

Dragonmaw Clan (Scientific, Agricultural)

Burning Blade Clan (Militaristic, Religious)

Amani Tribes (Agricultural, Expansionist)

Steamwheedle Cartel (Scientific, Commercial)

THE HORDE OF DRAENOR

Shadowmoon Clan (Scientific, Expansionist)

Warsong Clan (Militaristic, Expansionist)

Shattered Hand Clan (Militaristic, Scientific)

Thunderlord Clan (Militaristic, Agricultural)

Laughing Skull Clan (Seafaring, Expansionist)

Bonechewer Clan (Religious, Industrious)

OTHER

Frostwolf Clan (Agricultural, Religious)

Bilgewater Cartel (Commercial, Expansionist)

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-14-2017 at 01:42 PM..
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  #252  
Old 06-14-2017, 01:51 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I'd probably do a few differently.
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  #253  
Old 06-14-2017, 02:18 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I'd probably do a few differently.
Lies!

But I was trying to give everyone a home. Lordaeron was going to be (Religious, Expansionist), but someone had to be (Religious, Commercial). Quel'thalas was going to be (Scientific, Religious) with Dalaran as (Scientific, Industrious), but the latter was too perfect for the Gnomes. And of course, the Gurubashi were going to be something.

Considered making the Amani (Agricultural, Commercial) because hey, Zul'jin had that trading post in the reservation camp.
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  #254  
Old 06-14-2017, 02:43 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Lies!

But I was trying to give everyone a home. Lordaeron was going to be (Religious, Expansionist), but someone had to be (Religious, Commercial). Quel'thalas was going to be (Scientific, Religious) with Dalaran as (Scientific, Industrious), but the latter was too perfect for the Gnomes. And of course, the Gurubashi were going to be something.

Considered making the Amani (Agricultural, Commercial) because hey, Zul'jin had that trading post in the reservation camp.
I don't know. Lordaeron does not strike me as particularly commercial, expansionist or militaristic would make a better fit, in my opinion. And the Shadowmoon desperately lack religious. Also, I really, really do not think the Wildhammers should be industrious.

-------------------------------

I guess it's just that the Civ 3 model is a bit limiting when applying for established entities such as these. Like, the Blackrocks? Totally would be as much industrious as militaristic and seafaring.
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  #255  
Old 06-14-2017, 03:39 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I don't know. Lordaeron does not strike me as particularly commercial, expansionist or militaristic would make a better fit, in my opinion. And the Shadowmoon desperately lack religious. Also, I really, really do not think the Wildhammers should be industrious.

-------------------------------
Commercial was the enemy here. Merchant Kul Tiras, cheese industry Alterac, and greedy goblins were the only natural fits.

Shadowmoon (Scientific, Expansionist) was shorthand for the "use demonic-arcane artifacts to conquer infinite worlds". Some fits for scientific were natural, while some like Shadowmoon and Shattered Hand were more forced.

With Wildhammers, the original idea was to have all dwarves and gnomes as Industrious, including the Dark Irons (Industrious, Religious). I used the stormhammers as justification.

Quote:
I guess it's just that the Civ 3 model is a bit limiting when applying for established entities such as these. Like, the Blackrocks? Totally would be as much industrious as militaristic and seafaring.
Yeah.

WC&H orcs would be (Militaristic, Industrious) with Azeroth as (Militaristic, Religious) - the latter traits being what Civ3 used for medieval Europe civs in the Middle Ages scenario. I gave the Black Tooth Grin (Militaristic, Industrious) as legacy of this branch of the Blackrocks.
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  #256  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:42 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Who's with me that the Warcraft II manual retconned the Warcraft I human player character into Lothar, even though they were separate in the former game?
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  #257  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:53 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Who's with me that the Warcraft II manual retconned the Warcraft I human player character into Lothar, even though they were separate in the former game?
I assumed the Human Player was killed late in the war because Lothar's description mentions nearly dying in the Dead Mines but doesn't talk about who saved him.

You could infer the latter to mean Lothar saved himself, but I never did.
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  #258  
Old 06-19-2017, 07:04 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I assumed the Human Player was killed late in the war because Lothar's description mentions nearly dying in the Dead Mines but doesn't talk about who saved him.

You could infer the latter to mean Lothar saved himself, but I never did.
I have indeed always interpreted it so that Lothar saved himself, and that his Warcraft II entry retconned the Human Player out of existence, replacing him with Lothar (or rather, joined the two with some small alterations). Why? Because of this sentence;

Quote:
After becoming a Knight and rising to the position of Armsman to the Brotherhood of the Horse, he undertook a quest to seek out the Tome of Divinity - a task which all but killed him. Upon returning the sacred writings to the Clerics of Northshire, Sir Lothar led the armies of Azeroth into battle against the Orcish Horde.
Warcraft II had made it absolutely clear that Lothar assumed the command of Azeroth's armies right after his return, something that would often cause contradictions if he was a different character from the Human Player.
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  #259  
Old 06-19-2017, 07:22 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Well, it's pretty clear BtDP did that with Uther in the Second War by naming him commander when the Portal was destroyed. So it fits Blizzard's pattern of the time.
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  #260  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:41 PM
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Well, it's pretty clear BtDP did that with Uther in the Second War by naming him commander when the Portal was destroyed. So it fits Blizzard's pattern of the time.
Frankly, and I am saying that as someone who has always interpreted it the same way you do, it is hard to definitely conclude if the text had been meant to say that Uther led all of the Alliance during the battle, or if it were simply some of the troops under his personal command who were responsible for the obliberation of the Burning Blades.
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  #261  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:57 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Frankly, and I am saying that as someone who has always interpreted it the same way you do, it is hard to definitely conclude if the text had been meant to say that Uther led all of the Alliance during the battle, or if it were simply some of the troops under his personal command who were responsible for the obliberation of the Burning Blades.
Eh, it would be strange to emphasize Uther leading troops in that battle if he wasn't the ranking commander there. The question becomes: who else? Turalyon's description doesn't mention anything about leadership at this time (combine with Uther being his trainer/senior in rank, and being the only guy other than Lothar and Khadgar known to have First War experience at this point). Maybe Danath, but description emphasizes his role in Stromgarde itself and Khaz Modan.

EDIT: I feel like if Uther wasn't the ranking commander, the only alternative would've been Khadgar.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-19-2017 at 02:29 PM..
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  #262  
Old 06-19-2017, 02:52 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Eh, it would be strange to emphasize Uther leading troops in that battle if he wasn't the ranking commander there. The question becomes: who else? Turalyon's description doesn't mention anything about leadership at this time (combine with Uther being his trainer/senior in rank, and being the only guy other than Lothar and Khadgar known to have First War experience at this point). Maybe Danath, but description emphasizes his role in Stromgarde itself and Khaz Modan.
It would if he wasn't the only named military character other than Lothar. Still, sure, it a more propable interpretation, I am just saying it is not definite, not based off of the text at least.

As for who, well, Khadgar could fit within the confines of Warcraft II.
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  #263  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:06 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Do you think Alexstrasza was transported to the Black Morass in the Second War's final days, and liberated in the immediate aftermath of the "Final Battle at the Portal"?

I ask because this was the Dragonmaw's only in-game moment in ToD, and it was a strong one. Add the BtDP mission briefing for Orc 5, which I feel supports that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dragons of Blackrock Spire
When the Horde was driven back into the Black Morass, we were able to only take a small portion of our forces through the Dark Portal before it was destroyed. With the Dragon Queen Alexstrasza rescued and the Dragonmaw clan captured by the Alliance, we were no longer able to command these great winged beasts.

While securing the rift and beginning construction of a new portal, your encampment is approached by a haggard Grunt. His uniform marks him as a warrior of the Bleeding Hollow. He tells how those of his clan who did not return through the Portal have eluded capture and imprisonment by the Alliance armies. You also learn that many of the Dragons that were once enslaved have continued to feed upon Humans and are now roosting at Blackrock Spire. If you can break through the Human defenses and gain the trust of these creatures, perhaps you can bring Ner'zhul powerful allies.
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Originally Posted by New Stormwind
Finding the survivors of the Bleeding Hollow clan and gaining the Dragon Deathwing as an ally has strengthened your position in Azeroth.
In a pre-Day of the Dragon universe, I picture a scenario where the Dragonmaw are defeated and Alexstrasza rescued near the Dark Portal. Many of the dragons would scatter and flock to a nearby high point - Blackrock Spire - and prey on their acquired taste for human flesh under the leadership of Alexstrasza's son Deathwing, their new alpha.

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  #264  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:25 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
In a pre-Day of the Dragon universe, I picture a scenario where the Dragonmaw are defeated and Alexstrasza rescued near the Dark Portal. Many of the dragons would scatter and flock to a nearby high point - Blackrock Spire - and prey on their acquired taste for human flesh under the leadership of Alexstrasza's son Deathwing, their new alpha.
This should be canon lore.
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  #265  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:40 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Do you think Alexstrasza was transported to the Black Morass in the Second War's final days, and liberated in the immediate aftermath of the "Final Battle at the Portal"?

I ask because this was the Dragonmaw's only in-game moment in ToD, and it was a strong one. Add the BtDP mission briefing for Orc 5, which I feel supports that...




In a pre-Day of the Dragon universe, I picture a scenario where the Dragonmaw are defeated and Alexstrasza rescued near the Dark Portal. Many of the dragons would scatter and flock to a nearby high point - Blackrock Spire - and prey on their acquired taste for human flesh under the leadership of Alexstrasza's son Deathwing, their new alpha.
Certainly. In between Warcraft II's Grim Batol mission, the heavy Dragonmaw presence at the Dark Portal, and the Beyond the Dark Portal's mention of their capture without any mention of Grim Batol again, it was really the most sensible way to interpret this.

At the same time, I also believed that Doomhammer was captured only at the Dark Portal, not at Blackrock Spire. At least until Warcraft III.

Edit: Meh, blame bad morning memory, but I just remembered that even Warccraft III had Doomhammer captured only at the Dark Portal. I guess the first source where he was captured at Blackrock Spire already was Tides of Darkness?

Last edited by Marthen; 06-20-2017 at 06:43 AM..
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  #266  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:08 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Certainly. In between Warcraft II's Grim Batol mission, the heavy Dragonmaw presence at the Dark Portal, and the Beyond the Dark Portal's mention of their capture without any mention of Grim Batol again, it was really the most sensible way to interpret this.

At the same time, I also believed that Doomhammer was captured only at the Dark Portal, not at Blackrock Spire. At least until Warcraft III.

Edit: Meh, blame bad morning memory, but I just remembered that even Warccraft III had Doomhammer captured only at the Dark Portal. I guess the first source where he was captured at Blackrock Spire already was Tides of Darkness?
I actually almost talked about this instead of Alexstrasza, but I wasn't sure when Doomhammer's capture at Blackrock Spire first entered lore. I guess it didn't bother me before even if it was a recent addition, since

1) I don't think lore ever specifically said when Doomhammer was captured, until eventually they decided to go with Blackrock Spire?
2) The final WC2 level at the Portal sets you against Burning Blade, Black Tooth Grin, and Dragonmaw (with a handful of "Blackrock" portal daemons). So Blackrock presence doesn't feel heavy.

I can actually accept it as a "clarification".

* * * * *
* * * * *
* * * * *

Hey, an article! DUNCAN JONES REVEALS WHAT HIS STORY WOULD HAVE BEEN FOR WARCRAFT 2!

https://www.flickeringmyth.com/2017/...or-warcraft-2/

Now this looks interesting! Like, a whole movie of huge fantasy battles! It's World War II meets The Two Towers! I know, it's probably never getting a green light. Never going to happen. But can you imagine, an entire theatrical film dedicated to continental, multi-species medieval-magical warfare? Let me see what his vision would've been...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Jones
"So to me the idea over the course of three films would be for Thrall to fulfil that vision of Durotan to create a new homeland for the Orcs. So in [the sequel] it would be the adolescent years of that baby, and anyone who does know their Warcraft stories would know it’s very much a Spartacus story that goes on with that character. I would basically follow that through. And with the human side of it, which is a little less clear of how that would follow, but basically there is an aftermath to this film which would need to be completed. And on the Orc side you’re very much following that baby, Go’el, known as Thrall in the universe, and how he eventually creates the Orc homeland.”
Oh. I see. Duncan Jones' vision of Warcraft 2 was going to be Lord of the Clans. For the orc side. And the human side would be a little less clear. That's what his Warcraft 2 movie would've been.

Well. Rest in pieces on the cutting room floor, you scrap of trash!
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  #267  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:44 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I actually almost talked about this instead of Alexstrasza, but I wasn't sure when Doomhammer's capture at Blackrock Spire first entered lore. I guess it didn't bother me before even if it was a recent addition, since

1) I don't think lore ever specifically said when Doomhammer was captured, until eventually they decided to go with Blackrock Spire?
2) The final WC2 level at the Portal sets you against Burning Blade, Black Tooth Grin, and Dragonmaw (with a handful of "Blackrock" portal daemons). So Blackrock presence doesn't feel heavy.

I can actually accept it as a "clarification".

* * * * *
* * * * *
* * * * *

Hey, an article! DUNCAN JONES REVEALS WHAT HIS STORY WOULD HAVE BEEN FOR WARCRAFT 2!

https://www.flickeringmyth.com/2017/...or-warcraft-2/

Now this looks interesting! Like, a whole movie of huge fantasy battles! It's World War II meets The Two Towers! I know, it's probably never getting a green light. Never going to happen. But can you imagine, an entire theatrical film dedicated to continental, multi-species medieval-magical warfare? Let me see what his vision would've been...



Oh. I see. Duncan Jones' vision of Warcraft 2 was going to be Lord of the Clans. For the orc side. And the human side would be a little less clear. That's what his Warcraft 2 movie would've been.

Well. Rest in pieces on the cutting room floor, you scrap of trash!
1) Funnily enough, Warcraft III explicitly said he was captured at the Dark Portal. So even if we considered Beyond the Dark Portal's account as not definite enough (although if you asked me, it certainly pointed towards the Dark Portal option), Warcraft III would still clarify it one way, only to be retconned by (I think?) Tides of Darkness. But I had not brought it to criticize really (I am not sure which potential version do I prefer), but simply as an interesting tidbit.

2) Well, the rest of the Q&A this comes from makes it rather clear that Duncan's trilogy was not supposed to be about the Great Wars, but about Thrall's story, something he considers the core of Warcraft. Can't really blame him for that, he's not the only one, both among the followers and Blizzard themselves.

But yeah, at this point, I think I would have absolutely prefered Raimi's vision, which was supposed to be a raw fantasy war movie, centered around those old conflicts.
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  #268  
Old 10-28-2017, 03:17 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I still find this 1997 3D-ish map created (by Blizzard nonetheless) for Warcraft II: The Dark Saga really interesting.



Like, one can see how even at this point. 1997 (!), certain things that would become firm part of the universe were shaping up.

1) Blackrock Spire and the surrounding lands having its greyish tint.

2) A pass in the northern Alterac Mountains, allowing to imagine how even with this geography, the areas of Stratholme, Caer Darrow, and soon Hearthglen could be part of Lordaeron.

3) A snowy landmass in the west, hinting at nothing else but Kalimdor. Especially since the earliest concepts of the continent showed it quite boreal, as well as its inhabitants.



4) A lone set of mountains in northeastern Lordaeron, hinting at the Aerie Peaks/Northeron. Although at this time, it would be located north of Tyr's Hand/Stratholme, which would fit with the name Northeron, the relations between the elves and the Wildhammers detailed in the manual, and this old Warcraft II concept map.

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Old 10-29-2017, 07:37 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Good insights. I find it strange how Stromgarde looks like an east coast city here.

Another oddity is the frozen coastline of southern Lordaeron, Gilneas, Zul'dare, northern Kul Tiras, and "Kalimdor", while northern sections of the map are still green. You could guess it's an equatorial pattern, except it cuts off at Alterac, Tol Barad, and Crestfall.

My guess is there's a major cold current affecting that part of the Great Sea.
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  #270  
Old 10-30-2017, 01:47 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Good insights. I find it strange how Stromgarde looks like an east coast city here.
Just a strange positioning. The campaign map (which is more reminiscent of Warcraft III with dots and pathways) clearly shows it exactly where it should be.


Funnily enough, it also shows Stratholme north of Darrowmere, at the river, not at its coasts. I am starting to wonder if they ever intended for it to lie on the lake's coasts, or if the manual map had been simply inaccurate in some regards. Even the layout of the human mission would point towards a river.



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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Another oddity is the frozen coastline of southern Lordaeron, Gilneas, Zul'dare, northern Kul Tiras, and "Kalimdor", while northern sections of the map are still green. You could guess it's an equatorial pattern, except it cuts off at Alterac, Tol Barad, and Crestfall.

My guess is there's a major cold current affecting that part of the Great Sea.

That's indeed an oddity. Several ways to explain this. Could be what you say, could be that Lordaeron's further north than we would anticipate, and there is something (a current, perhaps) warming the north and the east, could be that the map is taking place at a very specific time. We may never know.
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Old 10-30-2017, 03:13 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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So ha; there's your river. Not a hidden one to the southeast, but the one always there to the north.

Thanks for those videos. I'd known the PS1 version had a map that followed your campaign, but I'd never been able to find a playthrough to view them.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 10-30-2017 at 03:16 AM..
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  #272  
Old 02-28-2019, 07:12 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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A time for a small blast from the past.





Two fun things about this. As you might remember, at one point, I asserted that Warcraft II did not really retcon the duality between agnostic warlocks and religious death focused mystics within orcish society, it only renamed these religious mystics from necrolytes to shaman. Still, when I was writing that piece, I considered it just an idea impossible to confirm, as though the manuals had pointed towards that direction, it wasn't anything definite. But, I completely forgot about this piece. There it is, an apprentice shaman who revers dark Gods who find a devouring of a world the highest of honor.

Also, that art of Doomhammer? Hard to find elsewhere. The manual sports a similar one, but different still.
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  #273  
Old 02-28-2019, 01:12 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Honestly, I think I prefer WC3-era orcs, rather than these absolutely chaotic orcs of old.
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  #274  
Old 02-28-2019, 01:34 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Well, that's natural, some people prefer this, some that. A matter of preferences. Or does it bother you that some people prefer older depictions? As I am slightly at loss here.
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