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  #126  
Old 12-27-2014, 09:54 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
I'm not certain he actually qualifies, but given the (seemingly relatively recent) surge of Vol'jin hate, I'm going to say I'm still a Vol'jin fan.
I don't necessarily hate Vol'jin, though I'm sure I have come off that way. I really disliked his portrayal in Tides of War and have called him a pussy because of it. In truth, I don't really feel that way. I actually do believe he is a better candidate for Warchief than Baine and probably the best candidate in the entire Horde. I am a fan of Vol'jin. I enjoy his character. He's a cool guy.

While I do like Baine, I believe that he is too soft for the role of Warchief. Despite having a backbone, it's often misplaced or simply one-sided. He stood up to Garrosh (and that was cool) but he also exiled tauren who had legitimate grievances with the Alliance. I suppose it might be fair to say that my shit-talking of Vol'jin is mostly misplaced anger which should really be directed at Golden for making Vol'jin out to be a bitch when he's actually a pretty ballsy motherfucker.
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  #127  
Old 12-28-2014, 09:38 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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The problem is that the ballsy stuff (aside from his threat to Garrosh in the starter zone) was only inserted after they decided they wanted to make him Warchief.
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  #128  
Old 12-28-2014, 06:02 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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The problem is that the ballsy stuff (aside from his threat to Garrosh in the starter zone) was only inserted after they decided they wanted to make him Warchief.
True.
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  #129  
Old 12-30-2014, 08:28 AM
kataak kataak is offline

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Othmar Garithos from WCIII
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  #130  
Old 12-31-2014, 05:54 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Othmar Garithos from WCIII
Post tow Jaina to divine bell jaina. Able to fight but not rabid. Taran zhu. Thrall
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  #131  
Old 01-11-2015, 01:33 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Yeah, I'd probably like Tirion more if my first introduction to him hadn't been that story.

You disarm an enemy in battle, and that means you have to wait until he picks up his weapon again before you continue? You get caught for sparing an orc refugee, and during your trial you don't think to appeal to the internment camps as an alternative to execution?

I didn't like that guy. It's possible I'd like the version in WoW better, but possibly not.
Tirion is the AwesomeTM.
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  #132  
Old 01-16-2015, 05:15 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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A registered member of the Malfurion club here. One of the most disheartening things about the state of night elf lore is to see people continuously disown and refuse to even consider using all that potential for fixing and patching things up storywise, if correctly used.

Also, the Jaina we had between the Theramore bombing and SoO. While I have no ingame experience of said things (aside from watching someone's condensed runthrough of the siege posted on the tube, in which she still didn't seem in any way insane or rabid or whatever people called her, to me), everything I heard pointed to people being mad at having a major alliance character act outside of the boundaries of cheesy goodness. And then proceeding to complain about the lack of that happening first thing the next morning. Yes I played W3 and knew her from there. And yes I think her reaction to Theramore made sense. No insanity required. None.
Meanwhile admiral whatsherface gets praised to high heaven for being gung-ho on her end not long after. Which is fine but...do you see what I see here?

Seriously, what the hell people?

Last edited by Icefrost; 01-16-2015 at 05:20 AM..
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  #133  
Old 01-17-2015, 11:17 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Well pffff, nobody likes Turalyon. He was emo and gay for Lothar in the '90s; now he's emo and gay for Alleria too. Fat head (possibly disability-laden), crazy serial-killer eyes, frightening psychotic breakdowns complete with a DragonballZ evil grin and/or battlescream.... in a heartbeat he'll flip out and kill you or he'll fall in love with you or he'll try to calm you down. He'll cave in your skull with a glowing hammer, and when he does it, you can't tell whether his erection is from thinking about how proud Lothar would be or from thinking about how the glow of the Holy Light reminds him of Alleria's skin.

And in that place of pure, brilliant light, he saw a figure that was light—the Light—itself. It hovered and glowed, gleaming as if its form was hard and crystalline but also soft, unspeakably soft, as soft as a tear, as soft as forgiveness, as soft as Alleria's pale skin.


Somber Turalyon

Serial Killer Turalyon

Somber Turalyon

Serial Killer Turalyon

Turalyon fucking scares me. He scares me because he's one of the most consistently written characters in the franchise, in terms of his modern personality depictions ringing true with his original voice and artwork.

He scares me because, even though the modern lore gives him waaaay more authority or significance than he had in Warcraft II, it has actually convinced me that Turalyon probably was the best candidate for the Warcraft II Player Commander.

Those of you who grew up with Warcraft II, how many times did you try to save Lothar? I remember talking about it in the AOL message boards. But there are a lot of words in "it is a good day to die", and it was so hard to type them fast enough... he died so many times, so many times. If you typed slowly, you couldn't stop it. And even if you could type it, you could never control Lothar. He just stood there, a ghost---immortal but also unable to strike his enemies. He could not be saved. Why couldn't he be saved?
We saw Lothar die so many, many times. But nobody else survived. We were the only ones who saw it, who could have prevented it. We were Turalyon that day.


Fawning on Lothar because he's the first authority figure you see. Fawning on Alleria because she's the only chick around. Brutally killing enemies without mercy because VIOLENCE! and XTREME!, with the raging hormones of someone going through puberty... the culminated emotional maturity of a teenage boy. By the Light, we Warcraft Players of the '90s were Turalyon. And then you fall to the ground and cry, because nobody wants to be Turalyon. Nobody respects Turalyon. So you fall to the ground and cry, like Turalyon. Then you get up and kill something, like Turalyon. And when you grow up, and you reflect on how you hate the way you were in the '90s, you realize it's a large part of why you hate Turalyon. So why would you fondly remember both? Because you're stupid, like Turalyon!

By the Light, Blizzard, don't let this maniac come back to the franchise! Bring him back - it'll be awesome. Don't let him TOUCH us! You know we want it, you bastard.

/insertTuralyonicon
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/becausenobodylikesTuralyonhe'sfuckingscary
Seems Pink Hat possessed the good Baron for a moment.
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  #134  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:07 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle
Yeah, I'd probably like Tirion more if my first introduction to him hadn't been that story.

You disarm an enemy in battle, and that means you have to wait until he picks up his weapon again before you continue? You get caught for sparing an orc refugee, and during your trial you don't think to appeal to the internment camps as an alternative to execution?

I didn't like that guy. It's possible I'd like the version in WoW better, but possibly not.
Anyone stupid enough to let an enemy on the field of battle pick up a weapon before they attack them again deserves an axe through the skull. That is a mind numbingly stupid thing to do. If the enemy is disarmed on the battlefield, you kill them!
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  #135  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:15 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Anyone stupid enough to let an enemy on the field of battle pick up a weapon before they attack them again deserves an axe through the skull. That is a mind numbingly stupid thing to do. If the enemy is disarmed on the battlefield, you kill them!
It is actually an old romanticized notion of knightly honour, that killing your opponent wasn't what was important but to defeat him as soundly and as unquestionably as possible through honour.
GRRM has it too in his books. The Sword of the Morning Arthur Dayne, considered the best swordsman of Westeros of his time and probably one of the absolutely best of all times, did do so towards the Smiling Knight. When the Smiling Knight lost his sword Dayne patiently waited for him to get a new one. The reason was twofold. One, Arthur Dayne was so superior as a swordsman that he could do so because the outcome wouldn't be any difference. Two, Dayne lived by a strict code of honour which compelled him to do so, he was known as the most chivalrous knight.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arthur_Dayne
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  #136  
Old 01-18-2015, 03:00 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Anyone stupid enough to let an enemy on the field of battle pick up a weapon before they attack them again deserves an axe through the skull. That is a mind numbingly stupid thing to do. If the enemy is disarmed on the battlefield, you kill them!
Sylvanas is aware, agrees and is glad to help
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  #137  
Old 01-18-2015, 05:45 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Originally Posted by Icefrost View Post
A registered member of the Malfurion club here. One of the most disheartening things about the state of night elf lore is to see people continuously disown and refuse to even consider using all that potential for fixing and patching things up storywise, if correctly used.

Also, the Jaina we had between the Theramore bombing and SoO. While I have no ingame experience of said things (aside from watching someone's condensed runthrough of the siege posted on the tube, in which she still didn't seem in any way insane or rabid or whatever people called her, to me), everything I heard pointed to people being mad at having a major alliance character act outside of the boundaries of cheesy goodness. And then proceeding to complain about the lack of that happening first thing the next morning. Yes I played W3 and knew her from there. And yes I think her reaction to Theramore made sense. No insanity required. None.
Meanwhile admiral whatsherface gets praised to high heaven for being gung-ho on her end not long after. Which is fine but...do you see what I see here?

Seriously, what the hell people?
*raises hand*

Allow me to take your objection seriously but I request you treat my rebuttal much the same. I object to the treatment of Jaina Proudmoore because of a number of reasons.

1. Jaina Proudmoore has already survived the Zombie Apocalypse. She has experienced losing everyone and everything she's ever loved before and endured it with an INCREASED devotion to peace.

2. Jaina Proudmoore's love of peace is to show her iron-clad convictions and nobility, it is NOT naivety. The treatment in the game and books makes her weak-willed and broken by her experiences.

3. Jaina Proudmoore wants genocide but the OTHER Alliance soldiers don't? Okay, that is complete merlock****. Varian Wynn holds back after genocide like the noble peace-loving statesmen?

No way, this is just to make Jaina look weak and him strong.

4. Jaina is constantly shown to be overly emotional and weak-willed as a statesmen because she's motivated by hate.

In short, the changes are sexist and eye-rolling and designed to undermine as the moral and mental authority of the Alliance to make Varian look good. Varian will NEVER be as cool, awesome, or wise as Original RecipeTM Jaina and trying to make him so makes me hate both characters. Especially as in order to make Varian look good, they try and make Jaina look worse.
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  #138  
Old 01-18-2015, 06:16 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
*raises hand*

Allow me to take your objection seriously but I request you treat my rebuttal much the same. I object to the treatment of Jaina Proudmoore because of a number of reasons.

1. Jaina Proudmoore has already survived the Zombie Apocalypse. She has experienced losing everyone and everything she's ever loved before and endured it with an INCREASED devotion to peace.

2. Jaina Proudmoore's love of peace is to show her iron-clad convictions and nobility, it is NOT naivety. The treatment in the game and books makes her weak-willed and broken by her experiences.

3. Jaina Proudmoore wants genocide but the OTHER Alliance soldiers don't? Okay, that is complete merlock****. Varian Wynn holds back after genocide like the noble peace-loving statesmen?

No way, this is just to make Jaina look weak and him strong.

4. Jaina is constantly shown to be overly emotional and weak-willed as a statesmen because she's motivated by hate.

In short, the changes are sexist and eye-rolling and designed to undermine as the moral and mental authority of the Alliance to make Varian look good. Varian will NEVER be as cool, awesome, or wise as Original RecipeTM Jaina and trying to make him so makes me hate both characters. Especially as in order to make Varian look good, they try and make Jaina look worse.
Honestly the only reason I agree with this is because I don't think Jaina fits the role of a needed anti-heroic Alliance character.

Otherwise WoW Jaina was horribly naive and kinda boring, WC3 Jaina was the only good Jaina.
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  #139  
Old 01-18-2015, 06:55 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
*raises hand*

Allow me to take your objection seriously but I request you treat my rebuttal much the same. I object to the treatment of Jaina Proudmoore because of a number of reasons.

1. Jaina Proudmoore has already survived the Zombie Apocalypse. She has experienced losing everyone and everything she's ever loved before and endured it with an INCREASED devotion to peace.

2. Jaina Proudmoore's love of peace is to show her iron-clad convictions and nobility, it is NOT naivety. The treatment in the game and books makes her weak-willed and broken by her experiences.

3. Jaina Proudmoore wants genocide but the OTHER Alliance soldiers don't? Okay, that is complete merlock****. Varian Wynn holds back after genocide like the noble peace-loving statesmen?

No way, this is just to make Jaina look weak and him strong.

4. Jaina is constantly shown to be overly emotional and weak-willed as a statesmen because she's motivated by hate.

In short, the changes are sexist and eye-rolling and designed to undermine as the moral and mental authority of the Alliance to make Varian look good. Varian will NEVER be as cool, awesome, or wise as Original RecipeTM Jaina and trying to make him so makes me hate both characters. Especially as in order to make Varian look good, they try and make Jaina look worse.
Posts like this make me wish this forum had a vote system. The other 99% of the time? No.
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  #140  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:57 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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The issue is that as long as it was convenient to offset the rage-fueled schizophrenia of Varian, Jaina was kept around as the adult reinforcement to Anduin's wish for peace - except unlike Anduin, she actually had a storied asis for her desires via the cooperative defense at Mt. Hyjal and her relationship with Thrall.

Then as soon as the rule of the day became showing how Varian had learned his lessons and stopped obsessing over the destruction of the Horde, she was transformed into an inverted counterpoint who exists solely for the sake of being extremely wrong to showcase how right everyone else is.

Now she's the reckless person whose lack of foresight screws up Varian's plans for peace. Now she's the hothead whose decrees are shouted down by cooler heads like Khadgar. Now she's the hater who needs to be talked down by Kalec.

That's the problem. No matter how much people insist she's right - and maybe logically she is - that's not the context being presented for her change. Thematically she's been written as this "new Jaina" not to show how wrong the old Jaina was (whether you believe that or not), but to use her anger and intolerance to make other characters seem like paragons of logic and reason by comparison.

Oh, and if anyone was thinking she's right, remember: we have the discovery that apparently SoO was about Garrosh and a hundred other guys declaring war on Azeroth, which makes Jaina more wrong about the Horde than ever before. So yeah, how's about that; now she's presumably condemning the entire Horde for the misdeeds of a tiny minority of Kor'kron. Because of that post-MoP "clarification" she is, in effect, doing what Sylvanas and Kael'thas did when they blamed humanity as a whole for Arthas going apeshit and betraying everyone.

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Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
1. Jaina Proudmoore has already survived the Zombie Apocalypse. She has experienced losing everyone and everything she's ever loved before and endured it with an INCREASED devotion to peace.
Sadly, as early as Daelin in TFT and continued with "angry all the time" Varian, Alliance survivors whose homelands were Scourged or invaded by the Legion have routinely been talked down to and treated like imbeciles by two human kingdoms that weren't even touched by the events of WC3.
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  #141  
Old 01-18-2015, 09:20 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Found this treasure on Tumblr, no idea who the one on the left is supposed to represent.

Source: http://inevitable-revoluion.tumblr.c...-motherfuckers





I don't hate Wrathion, but I do have to say having an uncorrupted dragon around just so they can be used as villains is dumb.
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  #142  
Old 01-18-2015, 09:39 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Then as soon as the rule of the day became showing how Varian had learned his lessons and stopped obsessing over the destruction of the Horde, she was transformed into an inverted counterpoint who exists solely for the sake of being extremely wrong to showcase how right everyone else is.
I actually intended to write an essay on Jaina Proudmoore, Varian, and company like I've done on several other video games but I got too "fanboy whining" about it. The short version is Jaina Proudmoore has been treated like she's a supporting cast member to Varian Wynne since the moment he's returned. Her actions are defined in opposition to Varian or to move HIS story along, irregardless of whether it makes sense for her character.

And it's so....WEIRD.

Jaina Proudmoore was an awesome, important, amazing part of what made WC3 great.

If they just flat out IGNORED her, it would at least mean she's not being derailed. Instead, everything seems designed to make her a caricature of herself.

I'm one of THOSE GUYS who complain about women's representation in video games and yet, Jaina was an aversion. A powerful, competent, intelligent, and still-flawed woman who made her own decisions in a leading role in a video game series yet who wasn't anyone's love interest.

Re: Varian

I admit, I'm also confused by the changes to Varian, though less upset about them. Varian was an INTERESTING character as the war-mongering pseudo-barbarian in charge of Stormwind. Him learning his lesson is fine, really, albeit it seems like he's less interesting and more generic as a character now.

Anti-Varian

I'm also confused why they needed Jaina to be the war-mongering pseudo-psycho since we already have a werewolf king who's kingdom has ALSO been eradicated by the Horde and is a veteran of the original wars. Wouldn't Genn be the perfect voice for war?
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  #143  
Old 01-18-2015, 10:06 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Wouldn't Genn be the perfect voice for war?
Who?
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  #144  
Old 01-18-2015, 11:25 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Who?
This dude.

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  #145  
Old 01-18-2015, 11:36 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
Anti-Varian

I'm also confused why they needed Jaina to be the war-mongering pseudo-psycho since we already have a werewolf king who's kingdom has ALSO been eradicated by the Horde and is a veteran of the original wars. Wouldn't Genn be the perfect voice for war?
While it doesn't justify it (as far as I'm concerned anyway), they used Jaina because her shift from championing peace to trumpeting war is supposed to to be an ironic inversion of Varian's shift from a temperamental warmonger to a more contemplative and reasonable High King.

In that vein, Genn wouldn't really fit because he never so much believed in peaceful coexistence with other as he promoted the whole world just leaving Gilneas alone.
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  #146  
Old 01-18-2015, 11:59 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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This dude.
Hm, sorry still not ringing any bells.

He looks pretty cool though.
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  #147  
Old 01-19-2015, 12:00 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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While it doesn't justify it (as far as I'm concerned anyway), they used Jaina because her shift from championing peace to trumpeting war is supposed to to be an ironic inversion of Varian's shift from a temperamental warmonger to a more contemplative and reasonable High King.

In that vein, Genn wouldn't really fit because he never so much believed in peaceful coexistence with other as he promoted the whole world just leaving Gilneas alone.
Probably that and they wanted to shake up the status quo and show that this war between the A/H would have real consenquences. Plus it really doesn't make much sense in Blizard's mind, to have the two main leaders in the Alliance to both be copies of each other.

Genn would make more sense since his entire home was lost to the war, but his charactization constantly changes. Really didn't care much about fighting the Horde, except for once in Ashenvale and that was only because he needed to re-join the Alliance for their help to retake Gilneas, and then decided to yell at them during the trial before disappearing back into the background.
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  #148  
Old 01-19-2015, 10:40 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Quote:
1. Jaina Proudmoore has already survived the Zombie Apocalypse. She has experienced losing everyone and everything she's ever loved before and endured it with an INCREASED devotion to peace.
Keep in mind that she wasn't a sole survivor. She didn't build Theramore alone. The other survivors did that with her. Following which she redoubled her efforts to make peace with Orgrimmar and so forth, because she didn't want to lose the "few" people she had escaped the last apocalypse with. She had a responsibility to the survivors who followed her to do her best to make sure they'd be better off on the new continent than waiting around to be overwhelmed by the scourge of lordaeron.

With her leadership, it works out despite the battle of Hyjal nearly ending the world, but then, one day, some warmongering maniac takes that away in one of the most brutal fashions known in the setting. Putting her, for the first actual time, in a position of having nothing left to lose as far as her people went.

From the perspective of a character's mental health, having at least a little something to hang onto versus having absolutely nothing for all intents and purposes, is a big difference. I've literally applied these same ideas on a small scale in something I wrote about an original character.

And even if it was just the same horror scenario over again instead of a worse one like I see it as, there's room to argue that the result wouldn't be the same the second time around.

Quote:
weak-willed and broken by her experiences.
I don't know about any details in the books, but I'd just like to pause here to say that one does not have to be the first of these descriptions in order to end up being the second when faced with the scenario I clarified (or whatever you think of it) above.

Quote:
I'm one of THOSE GUYS who complain about women's representation in video games and yet, Jaina was an aversion. A powerful, competent, intelligent, and still-flawed woman who made her own decisions in a leading role in a video game series yet who wasn't anyone's love interest.
I get more then a little peeved when people add that last bit there as an automatically detrimental thing that absolutely must not be there for the character to be properly represented. Sure a lot of writers botch it and warrant the prejudice, but the audience consistently returning the favour by (seemingly) lumping the busts with the actually decent efforts at it isn't helping anyone.
Just in general. I don't actually know that much about this particular case and her dragon.
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In short, the changes are sexist and eye-rolling and designed to undermine as the moral and mental authority of the Alliance to make Varian look good. Varian will NEVER be as cool, awesome, or wise as Original RecipeTM Jaina and trying to make him so makes me hate both characters. Especially as in order to make Varian look good, they try and make Jaina look worse.
Amen on everything you said here, except the part about hating on both characters for it.
The trick is that Jaina Proudmoore is not the only character whose actions and reactions to certain things have been exaggerated into looking like character assassination to shove Varian down everyone's throats. You know what I'm talking about if you're at all familiar with me as a poster around here.

On both counts, it's not the 'target' character's actions on their own that are a problem per say. It's how it's all used and abused just to prove a point in Varian's favour, rather than turning out to be a legitimate, even if generally less liked course of action logically taken by the person who should actually have centre stage instead of High Chin Wrynn over here.

In other words, don't confuse alliance characters going less-than-heroic at times when it arguably makes sense with the pretty much universally hated practice of shooting down said characters to be made examples of by stomping them under the weight of the mighty Lore-King's artificial fake-awesome.

Last edited by Icefrost; 01-19-2015 at 11:43 AM..
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Old 01-19-2015, 12:43 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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I get more then a little peeved when people add that last bit there as an automatically detrimental thing that absolutely must not be there for the character to be properly represented. Sure a lot of writers botch it and warrant the prejudice, but the audience consistently returning the favour by (seemingly) lumping the busts with the actually decent efforts at it isn't helping anyone.
Just in general. I don't actually know that much about this particular case and her dragon.
There's nothing wrong with it at all but in Jaina's case it was noteworthy that she appeared to be Arthas' cool wizard girlfriend but when push came to shove, she chose to honor her beliefs and become a leader in her own right. I even liked the Kalegcos relationship at first because she was clearly the dominate partner between them.

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In other words, don't confuse alliance characters going less-than-heroic at times when it arguably makes sense with the pretty much universally hated practice of shooting down said characters to be made examples of by stomping them under the weight of the mighty Lore-King's artificial fake-awesome.
It's funny you use that example because I actually think it applies to Varian Wynne. I don't DISLIKE Varian. It's kind of an odd duck because there's nothing wrong with Varian. He's not the "Scrappy" who I hated, even my love-to-hate him phase. No, Varian as the Barbarian Hero King and the Azeroth version of Conan was pretty damn awesome. I also LIKED he was quick-tempered, short-sighted, and violent.

That, yes, he kind of a crap king.

It made him interesting and his heart was still in the right place. Now? It's like they've sucked every bit of originality and interesting personality traits from him.

The flaws made him more fun.
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Last edited by Charles Phipps; 01-19-2015 at 12:51 PM..
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Old 01-22-2015, 11:26 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Yrel, Uther and Tirion. I like those three, though most people seem to hate them now adays.

Didn't like Maraad so much, though, other than his Bro moment in the Yrel the Exarch garrison quest chain.
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So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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