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  #1226  
Old 10-25-2011, 09:54 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
It's debatable as to whether or not the Alliance currently holds superior technology to the Horde. The Horde is magically superior via the Blood Elves, and the Forsaken, I dare say, have delved deeper into biological warfare than any other known faction in the game (save perhaps the Nathrezim and their scourge of undeath).

On a technological scale, we'd be weighing Dwarven and gnomish engineering against Forsaken and Goblin. The Draenei and Blood Elves as well, to an extent.

Not to mention, human feats... Is there anything in particular that humans have attained in the fields of science, engineering or magic since the Third War, that was also not found in Lordaeron? Because the Forsaken might very well have taken much of the "old" with them.
Where the Blood Elves offer a good deal of magic to the Horde, the Draenei manage the same for the Alliance, and they've been practicing magic for over 25,000 years, Argus being described as a world where magic ruled and build a utopian society.

Its only recently that the Horde has caught up to the Alliance in terms of technology, and they're still going through some growing pains of it, especially since Goblins are intent on cutting costs everywhere which puts the Horde's war machines in pitiable condition, such as an entire naval fleet falling to pieces.

Overall, the Alliance holds the strength in sheer numbers and quality of training. That's been my take on things =)

The Horde is certainly catching up in fields that can make a major impact, but they'll never be able to defeat the Alliance without more numbers.
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  #1227  
Old 10-25-2011, 09:54 AM
Faine Faine is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
I personally am hoping for this:

-Theramore gets destroyed but goes farther than a simple military attack, civilians are executed, children even. It would go well with the theme that even if Garrosh has honor, he's been creating a lot of orcs without out like Krom'gar.
I agree with this only if Garrosh is not in fact leading the charge. Cata has shown that some orc commanders under Garrosh do not have the same honor code as him. However, if Garrosh is leading the attack, it would be inconsistent for Garrosh to personally order executions of civilians, especially children.

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
-Jaina is utterly broken by what happens and becomes this hard-hearted "I won't rest until every soul in Theramore is avenged" borderline burn Orgrimmar to the ground type person for a while before eventually calming but never returning to being a full supporter of peace.

That's what I think of when I hear "life-changing".
Somewhat agree with this. My only thing is, I want her to go more in the direction of "Peace for the Alliance and Azeroth cannot be achieved with Garrosh in charge" than just completely forsaking peace altogether.

Last edited by Faine; 10-25-2011 at 11:15 AM..
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  #1228  
Old 10-25-2011, 09:58 AM
Sa'danak Sa'danak is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
Not to mention, human feats... Is there anything in particular that humans have attained in the fields of science, engineering or magic since the Third War, that was also not found in Lordaeron? Because the Forsaken might very well have taken much of the "old" with them.
Well the Northrend Icecreakers are new as far as I'm aware. Thats a relatively significant advancement in naval warfare since they don't rely on sails at all.

Gilneas is also significantly industrial (pistols, cannons, carriages), if they count.

But in truth I think the "Alliance forces are far superior" claim died with the non-canonisation of the rpg. That population count for Stormwind really was beyond ludicrous.
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  #1229  
Old 10-25-2011, 09:59 AM
Lochnar Lochnar is offline

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Depends on how you look at things. Technically, the Alliance had more soldiers, more resources, better technology, etc... Their military leaders had formal training on strategy, their soldiers are better trained, equipped, etc...

By most -normal- standards of logic, the Horde shouldn't hold much of a candle compared to the Alliance, the natural strengths of the Horde's member-races barely keeping them from complete loss
A lot has changed since WC3/the beginning of WoW.

The average grunt is now as well trained and equipped as the average footman(while still retaining their natural advantages) Horde military science has advanced to the point where it's no longer unusual to see Orc soldiers use a shield formation, deploy heavy cavalry (using Kodo) or attack enemy flanks. The orcs at honor stand have even become adept at guerrilla warfare tactics.

The Horde received a massive boost in technology, industry, and economics from the arrival of Bilgewater Cartel. The Alliance by contrast recieved NOTHING from the arrival of the Worgen that didn't have already, save for the ferocity of the Worgen themselves.

As a result, the gaps that existed between the Allaince and the Horde are MUCH smaller than they used to be
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  #1230  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:04 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Lochnar View Post
A lot has changed since WC3/the beginning of WoW.

The average grunt is now as well trained and equipped as the average footman(while still retaining their natural advantages) Horde military science has advanced to the point where it's no longer unusual to see Orc soldiers use a shield formation, deploy heavy cavalry (using Kodo) or attack enemy flanks. The orcs at honor stand have even become adept at guerrilla warfare tactics.

The Horde received a massive boost in technology, industry, and economics from the arrival of Bilgewater Cartel. The Alliance by contrast recieved NOTHING from the arrival of the Worgen that didn't have already, save for the ferocity of the Worgen themselves.

As a result, the gaps that existed between the Allaince and the Horde are MUCH smaller than they used to be
I don't deny this, I just like to point out the gap still exists, and an important factor remains sheer numbers.
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  #1231  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:08 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
I don't deny this, I just like to point out the gap still exists, and an important factor remains sheer numbers.
We don't know that as there are no population numbers.
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  #1232  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:12 AM
Divider Divider is offline

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We have no cumulative canon number for the armies. Nothing to indicate in canon that one side outnumbers the other in how many soldiers they can field, or even if it is a particularly significant difference.

And magic wise, I would say that the Blood Elves in canon are much more involved with the Horde than the Draenei are with the Alliance.

From what I see? The Horde and Alliance have rough conventional military parity with each other. The only way to really claim victory over the other, is in the end, maneuvering in the right direction at the right time.

Last edited by Divider; 10-25-2011 at 10:14 AM..
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  #1233  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:14 AM
Brother Shifte Brother Shifte is offline

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I don't think the Blood Elves are particularly more destructive with magic. The Alliance have Highborne, High Elves and humans, not to mention Gnomes, Dwraves and Worgen. Jaina, Rhonin, Medivh, Khadgar etc are top dog casters, so I reject the concept that Blood Elves are inherently better at it. I'd say they make use of magic intrinsically as part of their society, though, unlike humans.
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Last edited by Brother Shifte; 10-25-2011 at 10:20 AM..
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  #1234  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:16 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Shifte View Post
I don't think the Blood Elves are particularly more destructive with magic. The Alliance have Highborne, High Elves and humans, not to mention Gnomes, Dwraves and Worgen. Jaina, Rhonin, Medivh, Khadgar etc are top dog casters, so I reject the concept that Blood Elves are inherently better at it. I'd say they make use of magiv intrinsically as part of their society, though, unlike humans.
You can't count Rhonin or Khadgar as they're both hordelovers. Medivh is dead.
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  #1235  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:17 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Brother Shifte View Post
I don't think the Blood Elves are particularly more destructive with magic. The Alliance have Highborne, High Elves and humans, not to mention Gnomes, Dwraves and Worgen. Jaina, Rhonin, Medivh, Khadgar etc are top dog casters, so I reject the concept that Blood Elves are inherently better at it. I'd say they make use of magiv intrinsically as part of their society, though, unlike humans.
I think I agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
You can't count Rhonin or Khadgar as they're both hordelovers. Medivh is dead.
We aren't talking about the Alliance humans, we are saying that humans as a species are just as capable with magic as elves.
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  #1236  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:19 AM
Divider Divider is offline

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I always found it weird that for all of the harping on how good they are with it, we never got truly introduced to a really skilled draenei mage. Or a blood elf horde mage, for that matter. Their versions of Aegwynn if you may, although the BE case could be excused somewhat, given Outland.
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  #1237  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:19 AM
Brother Shifte Brother Shifte is offline

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
You can't count Rhonin or Khadgar as they're both hordelovers. Medivh is dead.
I still consider all three of them examples of Human magical ability, which is all I mentioned them for. I -do- think in humanity's greatest hour of need, the first two would defend their race to the last, but that's not relevant to my point
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  #1238  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:22 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Divider View Post
We have no cumulative canon number for the armies. Nothing to indicate in canon that one side outnumbers the other in how many soldiers they can field, or even if it is a particularly significant difference.

And magic wise, I would say that the Blood Elves in canon are much more involved with the Horde than the Draenei are with the Alliance.

From what I see? The Horde and Alliance have rough conventional military parity with each other. The only way to really claim victory over the other, is in the end, maneuvering in the right direction at the right time.
While it may be difficult to present a physical number, logic alone dictates the Alliance is larger than the Horde in numbers. The night elves alone were a group large enough to stand on par with the Horde and Alliance during WC3. The Orcish Hordes were largely reduced thanks to the Second War, then split further thanks to Rend's Dark Horde, while the remaining Orcs on Draenor were further reduced by Illidan. The tauren tribes united, but unless there were thousands of tribes... we're not looking at a gigantic increase in numbers there either. The Darkspear are a small tribe of Jungle Trolls.

Meanwhile you have the combined numbers of all three dwarven clans, the remnants of about 3 or 4 human kingdoms, etc...

Simple logic would dictate the Alliance has superior numbers to the Horde.
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  #1239  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:24 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Brother Shifte View Post
I still consider all three of them examples of Human magical ability, which is all I mentioned them for. I -do- think in humanity's greatest hour of need, the first two would defend their race to the last, but that's not relevant to my point
Sorry about that, a slight misread ^^.
When it comes to human prowess with the arcane arts they've shown to be quick learned and strong but lack controll and finess. While a high/blood elf mage can light a candle on a table with little effort a human mage trying the same would just scorch the entire table.
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  #1240  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:24 AM
Brother Shifte Brother Shifte is offline

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I see the Alliance as being a bigger faction but containing less elite soldiers. If you take WC3's simple resource stat, and bear with me because I know this isn't scientific method, and translate that into game?

One Grunt = Two Footmen. That works, to me. This is just for Orcs and Humans, and otherr races have to balance out as well.
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  #1241  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:26 AM
Sa'danak Sa'danak is offline

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
You can't count Rhonin or Khadgar as they're both hordelovers. Medivh is dead.
Really? Ingame characters are a real world stereotype now? Whatever I digress..

Rhonin advocated getting the Horde into Dalaran for the defense of Azeroth, if the Horde become the objects Azeroth needs defending against, expect a change.

Khadgar isn't on the planet anymore; He's chilling with A'dal and we really haven't been given any clues as to whether he even cares about the planet anymore. I'll give you this one, but it has nothing to do with "Horde-loving".

As for Medivh, never say never. The dude transcended death once and he was never shown to have died again. He might have just secluded himself ala Jarod, until Wolfheart. This is all irrelevant off course, the guy is the definition of neutrality. He went to everyone to forge an accord and if his final lines are to be believed then at the very least he's hoping everyone can handle themselves at this point.

EDIT: Fuck, I type way too slow. All points made worthless.
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  #1242  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:26 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Brother Shifte View Post
I see the Alliance as being a bigger faction but containing less elite soldiers. If you take WC3's simple resource stat, and bear with me because I know this isn't scientific method, and translate that into game?

One Grunt = Two Footmen. That works, to me. This is just for Orcs and Humans, and otherr races have to balance out as well.
That's precisely my kind of point =)

The Horde has always made up in its lack of numbers by having innate strengths associated with each race.
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  #1243  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:26 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
While it may be difficult to present a physical number, logic alone dictates the Alliance is larger than the Horde in numbers. The night elves alone were a group large enough to stand on par with the Horde and Alliance during WC3. The Orcish Hordes were largely reduced thanks to the Second War, then split further thanks to Rend's Dark Horde, while the remaining Orcs on Draenor were further reduced by Illidan. The tauren tribes united, but unless there were thousands of tribes... we're not looking at a gigantic increase in numbers there either. The Darkspear are a small tribe of Jungle Trolls.

Meanwhile you have the combined numbers of all three dwarven clans, the remnants of about 3 or 4 human kingdoms, etc...

Simple logic would dictate the Alliance has superior numbers to the Horde.
Logically we would assume so but remember you can't claim that as fact, and the orcs have grown much larger, troll I think have taken in other troll tribes, humans lost a lot in the 3rd War, same with the night elves.
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  #1244  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:28 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
Logically we would assume so but remember you can't claim that as fact, and the orcs have grown much larger, troll I think have taken in other troll tribes, humans lost a lot in the 3rd War, same with the night elves.
If humans -and- Night Elves lost a lot in the Third War, then logically so would have the Horde =)
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  #1245  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:30 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
If humans -and- Night Elves lost a lot in the Third War, then logically so would have the Horde =)
Horde didn't get their kingdoms BL'd and Scourged(not including BE).
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  #1246  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:37 AM
Divider Divider is offline

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
The night elves alone were a group large enough to stand on par with the Horde and Alliance during WC3.
You mean they were large enough to stand on par with Jaina's small military force and whoever Thrall sent into the forest. Hardly the full force of the Alliance. And between the Warsong, the Legion and Illidan's forces, they suffered many loses.

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The tauren tribes united, but unless there were thousands of tribes... we're not looking at a gigantic increase in numbers there either.
Like the trolls, we have zero idea of how many individuals there are in the tribes.

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Meanwhile you have the combined numbers of all three dwarven clans, the remnants of about 3 or 4 human kingdoms, etc...
And the Horde has the considerable undead forces from the largest human kingdom at the start of the third war, the vast majority of those elves who left Kalimdor, the entire Bligewater Cartel, whichever jungle trolls and orcs they've recruited since getting back up, plus a decade of relative peace for the orcs, trolls, and tauren to start replenishing their numbers, or allow their younger generations to grow up in an environment that is suited to those who would sharpen their martial skills.

Would logic alone dictate that a higher percentage of the Horde would be able to be soldiers than the percentage of the Alliance?

Quote:
Simple logic would dictate the Alliance has superior numbers to the Horde.
Leaving aside that assertion, are the numbers as such that the Alliance can just zerg rush to victory? Or is it that the numbers are not particularly important, and that it all comes down to tactics and strategy in the end?

Or is it all just lack of information.

Quote:
If humans -and- Night Elves lost a lot in the Third War, then logically so would have the Horde =)
They did lose a hell of a lot more, but that's the 2nd war. No, the Horde did not suffer anywhere nearly as much in the 3rd war as the humans and NE did.

Last edited by Divider; 10-25-2011 at 10:40 AM..
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  #1247  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:45 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Divider View Post
And the Horde has the considerable undead forces from the largest human kingdom at the start of the third war, the vast majority of those elves who left Kalimdor, the entire Bligewater Cartel, whichever jungle trolls and orcs they've recruited since getting back up, plus a decade of relative peace for the orcs, trolls, and tauren to start replenishing their numbers, or allow their younger generations to grow up in an environment that is suited to those who would sharpen their martial skills.

Would logic alone dictate that a higher percentage of the Horde would be able to be soldiers than the percentage of the Alliance?
The Forsaken represent a -tiny- portion of the Scourge, nothing that significant. The real boost in number for them would be a more recent thing, but those Forsaken are often described as being a tad less... quality.

The Blood Elves aren't even the whole 10% of the surviving members of their race. You lose 1% to High Elves, then 2% to neutral Scryers, and probably 4% remains loyal to Kael and were killed in Outland/Quel'danas, leaving you with 3% of that race being in the Horde.

Considering the mortality rate of Goblins, they aren't much to field. There are serious issues with their technology, but their numbers make up for that and bring them roughly to the same level of usefulness as Gnomes do for the Alliance.

A decade for the Trolls, Tauren, and Orcs to replenish their numbers and bring in their younglings to the armed forces is kind of the same thing for the Alliance's races as well. While the above three mature fast than most Alliance races, there are some unknowns, such as how long worgen take to mature.

Quote:
Leaving aside that assertion, are the numbers as such that the Alliance can just zerg rush to victory? Or is it that the numbers are not particularly important, and that it all comes down to tactics and strategy in the end?

Or is it all just lack of information.
Like I said, before, the Alliance's superior numbers bring the Horde's innate advantage for member-races to a standstill. It may take 3 humans to take down 1 Tauren, but for every tauren there -are- 3 humans, etc...
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  #1248  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:46 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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According to the no longer cannon RPG books, the Horde has considerably smaller populations compared to the Alliance. Their naturally stronger physique is also offset by the fact they wear mostly leather armor. Despite the books no longer being cannon, it follows a theme set forward by WC3, so I'd say it's somewhat in line with what Blizzard had in mind.
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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Like I said, before, the Alliance's superior numbers bring the Horde's innate advantage for member-races to a standstill. It may take 3 humans to take down 1 Tauren, but for every tauren there -are- 3 humans, etc...
You have to keep in mind that the Alliance has a smaller percentage of military personnel compared to the Horde.

Last edited by TerrorhoofMayo; 10-25-2011 at 10:49 AM..
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  #1249  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:49 AM
Moonrunner Moonrunner is offline

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The Horde is magically superior via the Blood Elves, and the Forsaken
I disagree.

What are blood elves and forsaken mages compared to their humans/gnomes/Dark Iron/Draeneļ/highborne/ high elves and worgens counterparts?

Last edited by Moonrunner; 10-25-2011 at 11:04 AM..
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  #1250  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:53 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Moonrunner View Post
I disagree.

What are blood elves and forsaken mages compared their humans/gnomes/Dark Iron/Draeneļ/highborne/ high elves and worgens counterparts?
Its a bit of a tricky thing, in my opinion. During WC2 and prior to that, the High Elves were a race that thrived off of magic, and a majority of their numbers practiced it in some form. Since that was an -entire- race, they held predominance in the planet's magical community.

The issue comes in the Third War, when 90% of the populace was killed. The remaining 10% got split several ways. While Blood Elves retain that magical skill and innate aptitude, their numbers have become so small that they no longer are the dominant force in the planet's magical community. However, they add a -ton- of magical support for the Horde, simply because prior to the Blood Elves, the Horde had -very- little magical support.
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