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View Poll Results: Conservative or Liberal?
Conservative 4 22.22%
Liberal 14 77.78%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 12-18-2007, 06:29 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Default Quick census.

I'm running a quick census on this topic. Please list yourself as either a Liberal or a conservative.

Conservative
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  #2  
Old 12-18-2007, 06:34 AM
Kerrah Kerrah is offline

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Neither.

Please note that in the classical sense (read: anywhere else than the modern USA), Liberal means a person who wants people to have all possible freedoms, except the freedom to limit other people's freedoms. This includes almost-total freedom of the economy.

Therefore, Liberal means right-wing in the rest of the world.

edit: [underlined part edited for clarity]

also, for further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Liberalism

Last edited by Kerrah; 12-18-2007 at 07:02 AM..
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  #3  
Old 12-18-2007, 06:37 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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I should have put neither, oh well which do you feel closer to? In the "American" sense of the words.
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  #4  
Old 12-18-2007, 06:41 AM
GreenEye GreenEye is offline

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The whole thing is BS anyway. The Republican are considered to be conservative and right-wing. Yet they're the ones constantly advocating "the freedom to X", which X being to keep weapons in your home, decide for yourself whether you want people to smoke or not in your restaurant, etc, which is all extremely liberal. Oh, and in America, Liberal = Commie = Evil.
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  #5  
Old 12-18-2007, 06:43 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenEye View Post
The whole thing is BS anyway. The Republican are considered to be conservative and right-wing. Yet they're the ones constantly advocating "the freedom to X", which X being to keep weapons in your home, decide for yourself whether you want people to smoke or not in your restaurant, etc, which is all extremely liberal. Oh, and in America, Liberal = Commie = Evil.
What I find BS was that the Democrats used to be conservatives and they practically OWNED the South. Sen. Zell Miller of Georgia was the last true Southern Democrat.

Now it's like completely in reverse with all the democrats being crazy liberals, though the Republicans have some nut jobs too, case in point Pat Robertson....

You didn't cast your vote though.
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Old 12-18-2007, 06:46 AM
Kerrah Kerrah is offline

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Well if you take by the American definition of Liberal = Left-wing...

Liberal
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  #7  
Old 12-18-2007, 06:49 AM
GreenEye GreenEye is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki View Post
What I find BS was that the Democrats used to be conservatives and they practically OWNED the South. Sen. Zell Miller of Georgia was the last true Southern Democrat.

Now it's like completely in reverse with all the democrats being crazy liberals, though the Republicans have some nut jobs too, case in point Pat Robertson....

You didn't cast your vote though.
So? You used to be European. The names are stupid too. I mean, isn't the U.S both a republic and a democracy?

I'm nothing but a bicyclist and a humanist.
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Old 12-18-2007, 10:26 AM
Kerrah Kerrah is offline

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Since this a political thread, I'll post this here:



A vandalisation of the logo of the Lapua Movement, the Finnish Fascists. Made by me.

Original here.
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  #9  
Old 12-18-2007, 10:32 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrah View Post
Since this a political thread, I'll post this here:



A vandalisation of the logo of the Lapua Movement, the Finnish Fascists. Made by me.

Original here.
What is that man doing to that bear?

And no, the United States is a Constitutional Republic, not a simple democracy which would mean that EVERYONE votes on everything, which is not the case. Instead we elect officials to represent the people.
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  #10  
Old 12-18-2007, 10:55 AM
GreenEye GreenEye is offline

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It's still a democracy, lol.
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  #11  
Old 12-18-2007, 10:59 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenEye View Post
It's still a democracy, lol.
But it's more properly known as a Constitutional Republic. Everyone doesn't get to vote on every issue either, which is what a true democracy really is. Instead you get to vote for someone else who will in turn vote for you in these matters.
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  #12  
Old 12-18-2007, 11:03 AM
Kerrah Kerrah is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki View Post
What is that man doing to that bear?
Everyone knows fascists are animal-lovers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki View Post
And no, the United States is a Constitutional Republic, not a simple democracy which would mean that EVERYONE votes on everything, which is not the case. Instead we elect officials to represent the people.
A nation like that doesn't exist.

A democracy is a nation, where people elect their leaders.
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  #13  
Old 12-18-2007, 11:10 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrah View Post
Everyone knows fascists are animal-lovers.

A nation like that doesn't exist.

A democracy is a nation, where people elect their leaders.
Which of these sounds most like the United States of America.

1. Democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

2. Constitutional Republic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic


Quote:
A constitutional republic is a form of liberal democracy, but not all liberal democracies are constitutional republics. For example, though the head of state is not elected in a monarchy, it may still be a liberal democracy if there is a parliament with elected representatives that govern according to constitutional law protecting individual rights (called a constitutional democratic monarchy). Also, a representative democracy may or may not be a constitutional republic. For example, "the United States relies on representative democracy, but [its] system of government is much more complex than that. [It is] not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law."
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  #14  
Old 12-18-2007, 11:18 AM
Kerrah Kerrah is offline

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Kenzuki, please.

Democracy can, if one wants to make it very simple, be divided to three categories...

-Direct Democracy, where people vote on things,
-representative Democracy, where people vote on representatives, who vote on things
-or a mix of the two.

They are all, however, democracies.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:31 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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I like to consider myself a pragmatic, inhumanist libertarian with both modern liberal and paleoconservative values
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:32 AM
Drirlake Drirlake is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrah View Post
Kenzuki, please.

Democracy can, if one wants to make it very simple, be divided to three categories...

-Direct Democracy, where people vote on things,
-representative Democracy, where people vote on representatives, who vote on things
-or a mix of the two.

They are all, however, democracies.
Agreed.
Also Liberal.
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:01 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Am I the only Conservative here or what?
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  #18  
Old 12-18-2007, 02:11 PM
Vonhahn Vonhahn is offline

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Liberal.

However, when it comes to Canadian national politics, I'm totally undecided. I'm not to big a fan of the conservative government in power, But the lead opposition, the Liberals, seriously need to get there act together right now.

I actually enjoy following municipal politics more. I know, thats kinda strange.
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:42 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenEye View Post
The whole thing is BS anyway. The Republican are considered to be conservative and right-wing. Yet they're the ones constantly advocating "the freedom to X", which X being to keep weapons in your home, decide for yourself whether you want people to smoke or not in your restaurant, etc, which is all extremely liberal. Oh, and in America, Liberal = Commie = Evil.
They're also the ones constantly voting for higher taxes. The Democrats are no longer liberals and the Republicans are no longer conservatives. They're just career politicians who will believe in whatever they have to in order to get a vote.

That said, I'm best described as a left-leaning libertarian.
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Old 12-18-2007, 05:38 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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Nobody's going to be surprised, but liberal.

Re Kenzuki: If Bradford were still around, he would doubtlessly put "conservative." Judging from the pseudo-political aspect of many of the Alliance-Horde debates that occur here, I suspect that several other fervent Alliance supporters are also more conservative, socially at least.
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  #21  
Old 12-18-2007, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamestrider View Post
Nobody's going to be surprised, but liberal.

Re Kenzuki: If Bradford were still around, he would doubtlessly put "conservative." Judging from the pseudo-political aspect of many of the Alliance-Horde debates that occur here, I suspect that several other fervent Alliance supporters are also more conservative, socially at least.
I support the alliance from a military and social standpoint but not from an economic one.
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  #22  
Old 12-18-2007, 07:12 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Conservative.
Bit of an additional "definition" contribution. Sometimes (not always, but not infrequently either) a liberal is indicative of one who believes that sweeping chage is necessary to the existing status quo in order to overcome even questionable difficulties. A conservative is more prone to believe that drastic alterations aren't called for, and instead simple tweaking can compensate for the system's inadequacies and shortcomings.

These meanings deriving from the politically "unattached" definitions of the words (liberal roughly meaning "a lot" and conservative roughly meaning "only as much as is really needed"). A true conservative tends to think that rather than calling in the government to overturn everything and "make things right", it is more prudent to seek a means of helping the current status quo to correct its problems itself. A liberal would generally be more inclined to increase governmental interference under the pretense of the benign "greater good" while stifling the ability of people to adapt on their own and creating a dependency on government aid that is almost addictive in nature.

Ironically, many advocates of both schools of thought accuse each other of trying to suppress the citizenry and limit free speech and thought, with liberals painting the picture of conservatives as intolerant bigots with militant leanings while conservatives portray liberals as thought police hiding their own brand of intolerance for individuality behind the guise of fostering unity. In truth, both have their own tendencies to reflexively lash out and seek the removal of ideas contrary to their own.

My own conservative views stem largely from noticing that when liberal actions bring about positive results, it seems to more generally accepted over time by the conservative side (nobody ever seems to lament "why did we ever raise that tax? Doing so ruined everything!"). Yet when conservative behavior proves beneficial in certain cases, the liberal response is more frequently to try to destroy and discredit the evidence that one of their opponents' ideas actually worked. Conservatism survives criticism, while liberalism mostly thrives as long as they can keep everyone convinced that nobody else's ideas will work. Prosperous liberalism is just prosperous liberalism, and all well and good when it works, but prosperous conservatism reveals the inherent flaws of liberalism.

Last edited by ARM3481; 12-18-2007 at 07:17 PM..
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  #23  
Old 12-18-2007, 08:42 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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See, original (paleo) conservatives were in favor of a small government and minimal interference into the lives of individuals. In a way, the current conservative government of America is directly opposed to that, though the liberals aren't helping either.
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Old 12-19-2007, 12:18 AM
GreenEye GreenEye is offline

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The opposite of minimal governmental interferance = today's America? You've got to be kidding me. If you ever came to Sweden/Finland/Denmark/Norway you'd piss your pants.

Last edited by GreenEye; 12-19-2007 at 02:52 AM..
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  #25  
Old 12-19-2007, 12:47 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
See, original (paleo) conservatives were in favor of a small government and minimal interference into the lives of individuals. In a way, the current conservative government of America is directly opposed to that, though the liberals aren't helping either.
The conservatives don't like the 4th amendment.
The liberals don't like the 2nd amendment.
And none of them care about the 10th.
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