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  #126  
Old 06-14-2019, 02:32 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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y'know what puzzles me? So few units in ANY Rts that I know of use crossbows.
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  #127  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:11 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...art-ii.316817/

Quote:
Reforged Recap/Feedback Sessions Summary said:

DISCLAIMER: Nothing here is of final end-all word of official word of Blizzard. This is our take on what we know from the experience, bar the NDA. Everything here has already has been publicly said in one way or another, but perhaps not compiled in this way.

General:
This is still on the same engine as the original Warcraft III! Reforged is physically built through the current game as a major upgrade, alongside the graphics. How the base game is played and feels remains the same. Reforged/Classic cross-play; Reforged players can play with classic players simultaneously. This also means both versions generally get the same patches for at least balance and overlying features since. You can switch between Reforged/Classic versions or graphics, though probably not through the ease of one button in-match like in Starcraft. You can swap between old voices or new voices. Expect a beta in ear-___.

Gameplay:
The core gameplay of what makes WC3 unique is not intended to be noticeably altered, especially for the base game and melee. The pathing and collision size should remain the same. However, outside of competitive play, they have the freedom to look decisions differently. Ideas regarding expanding unit selection limits over 12 and more item slots outside of ladder can be on the table.

Content:
Suggested new content such as the infamous 5th race, new campaign missions, and co-op modes have not had statements or announcements tied to them, but again, the team is looking at everything.

Visuals and Art:
Art style - The original intended art style was to go for a more cartoony look, but the team has instead settled on a grittier look closer the spirit of Warcraft III's lore and story themes as opposed to WoW. There's a lot of work to be done still, so making the style more consistent should help solidify the direction to stand on its own over time.
Models - An abundance of feedback for many reforged models has been communicated constructively. It is clearly understood that while many of the models host extravagant detail, more clarity is needed for gameplay purposes. They are also looking at feedback in terms of model resemblance to the original looks. To share a specific example, the new Grunt is agreed to be a great standard while the Footmen should be evaluated under scrutiny quite a bit more. Things like ground textures for buildings and particle effects will be seen in time.
Terrain - The terrain shown at Blizzcon is in a very early state. It's been communicated that it looks flat and lacks volume, and some tiles may lack saturation. They are planning an overhaul of the old terrain tile system to a new one.
UI - The UI shown at Blizzcon was also in a very early state. You will be able to swap between the original UI and new minimalist version, but there could be more changes to that. Modders will be able to fully customize it more than for their custom maps.

Battle.net:
It's been confirmed that Warcraft III will be on the modern Blizzard Battle.net launcher, which would give it much better server infrastructure and also new life from other Blizzard game players. Features like clans, improved hosting and filtering, lobby control, friends, bans/avoid, are all being looked at and the hope is that these are all retained if possible, while also being improved.

Lore:
The story will not be changed, but Blizzard is looking at ways to make the entirety Warcraft lore as a whole more consistent in WC3. The Culling mission already had WoW easter eggs that did not affect much other than there being cool mini-bosses other than Mal'Ganis. And maybe this doesn't only pertain to WoW, as some WC1 and WC2 pieces don't perfectly line up with WC3's. The intention seems to be for WC3's story to remain what it is at heart, while also adding things for consistency and fun that other players in the Warcraft universe can also enjoy. Specifics on the extent of this are still up in the air, but remember that you can always choose to play the classic campaign generally untouched.

Custom Game Compatibility:
Most custom maps should be compatible with reforged. While the aim is for the vast majority of maps to work on reforged Day 1, Blizzard is also looking at ways to maximize the amount of complex or import heavy maps to be transferred over. They are looking at many maps individually and are doing internal testing. Since this is such a momentous task, it would be a collaborative for modders and map makers to continue to find workaround methods with modders and map makers with the developers. Point out the maps that don't work with patches, especially if they haven't seen it yet. Worst comes to worst, few maps will have to be significantly updated or would stay with the classic version, but a revitalized player base and modding tools added for both games still improves the net experience of said custom map.

World Editor and Modding:
It is not a separate new editor and it is not the SC2 editor in WC3! It is strictly the current World Editor upgraded, with the base features of editor going to function as it always has. Blizzard's goal is to keep the editor as accessible as possible while providing the needed efficiency while ridiculously insane features are added. Yes, new natives are on the way, but also expect some other crazy shit. The specifics of this are not confirmed, but the the editor will be updated as one alongside both classic and reforge.

For the artistic side, new modding tools can be used to make Reforged quality models and will be provided by Blizzard for community use.



Other:
Other things like animations, certain voice lines, Chinese censorship/age rating, bots, monetization, and more were discussed, but were were not yet ready to become public information for one reason or another, or were minor points. There's so much more that we can't fit into this article, but if you search around you'll likely see some more.
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  #128  
Old 07-03-2019, 12:19 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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I hate Blizzard, but I also want this to succeed, the RTS genre could be brought from the dead if it's good enough.

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
There is a base, it is simply unreachable like in the original rendition. But both the green and the purple attack from there. You can see it here. It's essentially where the Slaugherhouse is in World of Warcraft.

https://youtu.be/J-0urAe-_1k?t=4317
Kinda disappointing to see wall models weren't reworked to allow units to actually climb and fight there. Some kind of cliff-addons would have been great too, there's lot of experiments around with ramps (I even did some myself), but it's hard to overcome the editor's limitations.

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I'm hoping that maybe the naga tech tree might be expanded into a full tree like the other four and that they might be available in multiplayer. It's probably not going to happen, at least not outside mods, since it would require additional rounds of rebalancing. Here's hoping that WC3R has SC2-style mod support so that it will be easier to use.

I would love to see tech trees for the Legion and the Goblins, though. But it's probably not gonna happen outside mods.

The sorts of skins, variants or co-op armies I'd like to see include:
  • Human Alliance: High Elf/Blood Elf, Stormwind/WC1-era (e.g. clerics, conjurers, catapults, crossbowmen), WC2-era (e.g. naval), other nation-specific
  • Orcish Horde: Chaos Orc/Fel Orc, WC1-era (e.g. necrolyte, warlock), WC2-era (e.g. naval, death knight, ogre mage), other clan-specific
  • Undead Scourge: Forsaken, Nerubian Empire
  • Night Elf Sentinels: Corrupted Ancients (satyr), Highborn

There are some WC3 campaigns that try to remake WC1 and WC2. I'm more interested in replicating the spirit rather than identical mechanics, as those simply aren't fun in modern times. Following the WC3 style seems fine, but naval combat would be entirely new. A re-imagining of WC1 or WC2 could expand the tech trees to a similar breadth as WC3. Units could be re-skinned and re-flavored for different nations and eras.

WC1 didn't have heroes, but its warlocks, necrolytes, conjurers and clerics have spells that in WC3 belonged to heroes. The warlock's summon daemon translates to the pit lord's doom spell, the necrolyte's dark vision and cleric's far seeing translates to the far seer's far sight spell, and summon water elemental is shared between conjurer and archmage. Likewise, the WC2 death knight and mage have six or seven spells each, so they could be split into two or so heroes by WC3 standards.

WC3 archers, priests and sorceresses could be re-skinned as Stormwind's archers, clerics and conjurers. The heroes could include the paladin (e.g. Lothar), archmage (e.g. Khadgar), and firelord (justified as summoned by the conjurers in lore). WC3 necromancers, Stormreaver necrolytes, warlocks, and doomguard could be adapted to the WC1-era Horde. The heroes could include blademaster, farseer, warlord (cut from alpha), and warlock (Archimonde's class); maybe demon heroes like the Pit Lord.

WC2's heroes don't work like WC3 heroes, but could be adapted as such. Gul'dan is a custom warlock hero, Cho'gall and Dentarg are custom ogre mage heroes, Zuljin is a shadow hunter hero, Grom Hellscream is a blademaster hero, Kargath Bladefist is a custom warlord hero, Teron Gorefiend is a death knight hero, Deathwing is a custom black dragon hero. Sir Anduin Lothar and Danath are custom heroes (maybe crusader cut from alpha?), Sir Uther Lightbringer and Turalyon are paladin heroes, Khadgar is an archmage hero, Alleria is an elven ranger hero, Kurdran is a custom dwarf gryphon rider hero.
Rather than naga, I think the way to go could be Illidari. So, naga, plus blood elves, plus draenei. They would share some units with humans (who would get them reskinned back into high elves) and night elves.

Some kind of Demon faction could also work, just mix fel orcs with the few demon units there are around. They would share some units too, with orcs and undead.

Further factions wouldn't be that easy to develop, since there aren't enough resources around. However, it could work if they're willing to make new stuff.

I wrote a W3 second expansion idea some time ago. There, I advanced the plot in an alternate route, with Deathwing and the Old Gods as the villains, and I added two secondary races:

The first would be the Spider Empire, using undead mechanics like the blight and burrowing. They would employ silithids, qiraji, and nerubians. They would share some units with the undead (crypt nerubians).

The second would be the Twilight's Hammer, an army of cultists serving the Black dragonflight, using night elf mechanics like the moving buildings. They would employ goblins, centaurs, elementals, titanic constructs, and faceless ones. They would share some units with the night elves (giants, dryads).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
In Reign of Chaos you can absolutely go there and attack it, it's just not feasible to do so generally. Mal'ganis has his altar of darkness there too. This looks like it's just... off the map. It's not a big deal, it just bugs me.

I think a Naga tech tree would be all right. The actual Naga units are so absurdly overpowered they're ridiculous, though. So they'd need A LOT of balance work.

I definitely want more bold armies and sound sets. Like I hope they add an actual elven swordsman and archer model that aren't just footman and night elven archer remodels. Honestly the Archer & Swordsman are also kinda useless anyway.
They could monetize W3 easily by selling skin packs for the entire race.

For example, W2-esque Horde, replacing jungle trolls with forest trolls, and tauren with ogres. Troll empires, replacing everything in the Horde with trolls and dinosaurs. Silvermoon, with elves replacing humans and dwarves. Undead with a desert mummy theme. They don't even need different stats, just good enough models and animations to make the transition work.
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Last edited by Lon-ami; 07-03-2019 at 12:26 PM..
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  #129  
Old 07-05-2019, 02:04 PM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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What about a Dark Iron/Elementals theme for Humans?

Dark Iron Sorcerer-thane who summons Fire elementals and uses Rain of Fire, Dark Iron Marshals that heal with the light, Flamewaker Overseer that drains mana, banishes and casts Flamestrikes.


Peasant - Miners or Stone Elementals
Footmen -> Brawler
Knight -> Ramriders, Corehounds or Golems
Spellbreaker -> Forgeguard
Dragonhawk -> Firehawk (like Alysrazor)
Priest -> Flamewaker Cauterizer
Sorceress -> Flamewaker Subjugator

Last edited by Triceron; 07-05-2019 at 02:08 PM..
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  #130  
Old 07-05-2019, 06:18 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
What about a Dark Iron/Elementals theme for Humans?

Dark Iron Sorcerer-thane who summons Fire elementals and uses Rain of Fire, Dark Iron Marshals that heal with the light, Flamewaker Overseer that drains mana, banishes and casts Flamestrikes.


Peasant - Miners or Stone Elementals
Footmen -> Brawler
Knight -> Ramriders, Corehounds or Golems
Spellbreaker -> Forgeguard
Dragonhawk -> Firehawk (like Alysrazor)
Priest -> Flamewaker Cauterizer
Sorceress -> Flamewaker Subjugator
I like this a lot! I hadn't given thought to faction skins, I'd really love this.
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  #131  
Old 08-05-2019, 03:59 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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  #132  
Old 08-05-2019, 10:22 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Proportions feel weird
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  #133  
Old 08-11-2019, 07:45 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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I don't think I'm going to take the time to siphon through all that to find people's pertinent opinions. I mean fair enough, I'm sure there's good points in here that are worth considering, but I also highly doubt it's anything new anyway. Yeah, the 1998 RTS game is logically inconsistent. Sure.

But as far as doing what it sets out to do, stringing together exciting game play with fun characters and a fun plot it does it's job. It succeeds. I don't dislike StarCraft 2's campaign because of the inconsistencies or plot holes or whatever, though. The fact that they completely, directly retconned the story I blatantly already played through (for... dubious reasons) bugs me, but it's more just... SC2 isn't any fun for me.

I guess if I objectively compare them, and could objectively try to find a reason I prefer SC1 to SC2 it'd mainly be I just think SC1 is more fun and the plot is more substantial, it's more earnest and sincere. I think all these things are true.

Anyway, to try and guide the conversation back to WC3. I really would like to see them improve the item table. The Wand of Negation is so much worse than the Staff of Negation, Frozen Throne also has lots of cool unique items like Gul'dan's Shadow Orb and the Ring of the Archmage, and I think that's something Reign of Chaos would really benefit from.

Something like making Frostmourne an item and it getting more and more powerful the more Arthas kills things. Like every 50 kills is a +1 to his attack power or something. That's a little weird because it's not an engrossing side-mission like what exists in tFT, though. So maybe that wouldn't work as well.
I can't wrap my mind around critiquing StarCraft's story for not lining up with it's manual. It's a truly bizarre reversal.

The manual is irrelevant. It's tertiary material, secondary at most. The manual is not a story, it's trivia. The game is the primary source.

You can go into StarCraft without having read the manual and you'll be fine. I didn't read the manual until well after I'd played through the campaigns. I bet the number of people who read the manual at any point is quite small proportional to the number that played the campaign.

For the purposes of determining whether the campaigns in StarCraft and Brood War are any good, the manual is functionally irrelevant.

If the game's story and the manual don't line up well, then that's a problem with the manual. Not the game.
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  #134  
Old 08-19-2019, 12:12 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Id like it if they added the Ashbringer comics storyline as an additionnal bonus campaign. Was a good story and following Alexandros and Darion around would be a good bridge between Warcraft III Reforged and WoW Classic. Could have like one chapter with Alexandros and one with Darion.
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  #135  
Old 08-19-2019, 12:40 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Well, those are pretty badass if you ask me.
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