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  #7726  
Old 02-07-2019, 08:44 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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  #7727  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:07 PM
Sa'danak Sa'danak is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
A common complain I hear about the idea of "lightsaken" or whatever people are calling the Calia-led potential Alliance Undead allied race is that it would further make the Forsaken come across as less justified in calling themselves that and would take away them being torch-bearers of Lordaeron's heritage, also that it would further reinforce the theme that the Horde are the faction of bad guys whereas the Alliance get the nicer and more heroic races.

What does everyone else think? Let's just entertain the concept at the very least. How could Blizzard implement them while still addressing these concerns that Undead fans have?
I'm probably going to ruffle some feathers by saying this but i see no genuine reason Calia has to stay with the Alliance to begin with.
I'd guess that if Lightforged are the go-to Undead race (and i dont see that as certain either but ill get to that in a bit) that we're far more likely to see her step in after Sylvanas is, one way or another, removed from power. Nathanos certainly does not not come across as able outside military matters, assuming he doesnt go down with her. Furthermore, light or not they are both zombie races from Lordaeron at the end of the day and she has great significance to both.

It also bears noting this entire discussion assumes Calia is going to be joined by other Undead in her holy transformation. If so, what possible reason has Faol got to have not gone that route? It would certainly have made his neutral position easier. Maybe you can only be raised Lightforged the first time and all the current zombies are out of luck? If so it seems unlikely that that many holy Undead are likely to be Lordaeron citizens and at that point her entire significance as former princess is irrelevant.

Hell we can walk it back even further and question if shes even being set up for racial leadership at all. Whats to make Lightforged Undead that much more likely than San'layn? In the latters case, we already had a storyline and one notable setup and theres already a quote for them joining the Horde in-game even if they are strangely absent from said sides story. Furthermore, after Velves, the "too few for a race" argument has been pretty thoroughly bunked so even if they're mostly gone for good (Icecrowne brought several back for round 2 though so this aint 100%) the 2 unaccounted for ones are still out there.
Don't get me wrong, Calias definitely way more fleshed out and clearly is being built up for something but her current forms not even in-game yet and her revival was mostly unaligned parties. She could just as easily be an important neutral being setup for the ever obvious Light vs Void/Old Gods expack like Illidan was.

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I'm sorry how do you figure?
To be frank, upon rethinking my argument and going over the Horde questing again, I guess i don't. She's around but it is mostly Nazmir. So yeah, i'm just gonna admit my fault there. You guys are right,she's not as present as i claimed.

I still don't see them being able to take what they have with her and make anything remotely passable as far as depth is concerned anytime soon and would vastly prefer Rastakhan.

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Originally Posted by Ujimasa Hojo View Post
Come on guys. Stop overthinking the Derek's state of decay.

We already had Thoras being in a better state of preservation than his son, Galen.
Thoras's corpse was likely given a proper burial with great taken to preservation. Galen was killed and left where he died. Furthermore the ebon blades horseman based revival was definitely atypical as it was able to raise even Whitemane despite Voss's deliberate ensural she would stay dead. Hell come to think of it, wouldnt tirion have been borderline incinerated after Krosus + fell lava?? Yet Darion had no doubt of his return either. It likely reconstructed him completely as part of the spell.
All in all, this seems like a poor comparison.
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  #7728  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:33 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Sa'danak View Post
Hell come to think of it, wouldnt tirion have been borderline incinerated after Krosus + fell lava?? Yet Darion had no doubt of his return either. It likely reconstructed him completely as part of the spell.
All in all, this seems like a poor comparison.
Well, technically Tirion didn't actually die until later, and judging by the lack of catastrophic burns either the Light may have protected him to some degree from the lava and Krosus' flames or perhaps the Legion deliberately rejuvenated his body so they could continue torturing him until the paladin player arrived to free him.

His actual death came from wounds inflicted by one of Balnazzar's Jailers, and since he wasn't visibly affected by his dip in lava by that time, it would seem his remains were interred mostly intact.
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  #7729  
Old 02-08-2019, 01:35 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Sa'danak View Post
Furthermore the ebon blades horseman based revival was definitely atypical as it was able to raise even Whitemane despite Voss's deliberate ensural she would stay dead.
Thoras is a greater undead, a death knight raised through the Lich King's direct power, and made to be stronger than normal Death Knights. I think the state of his corpse did not matter at all. As long as there was some remain, the Lich King would make him whole again.
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  #7730  
Old 02-08-2019, 05:15 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I'd be pissed if I was still deep in the game. For a long time I and people like me wanted a more nuanced portrayal of the Forsaken. Focusing on the duality of going from a normal everyday person to a monster. Dealing with peculiarities of undead existence. How they deal with all the horror they endured and caused while under the thrall of the Lich King. And ofc the legacy of old Lordaeron.

If they would to give all of that potential that was hardly if at all realized among the Forsaken themselves and cart if off to a new race, on the opposing side no less well that'd be like making a wound and then salting it just for added spite.
Except that Alliance undead the way I, Grim, and many others want them are not mutually exclusive with more diverse Forsaken, so like Grim implied, using it as an argument towards being upset is not particularly sound, and as far as I am concerned, it feels rather self-serving.

I've been saying since Vanilla that if playable undead must have been part of the Horde, they should have been neutral like the Pandaren. Those wanting to shun humanity and move completely onward from their past would gravitate towards the Horde, those wanting to reconcille with their old life, beliefs, humanity would gravitate towards the Alliance. A potential allied race is not th way I would handle the issue, but it is better than nothing.
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  #7731  
Old 02-08-2019, 05:53 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Originally Posted by Ujimasa Hojo View Post
Come on guys. Stop overthinking the Derek's state of decay.

We already had Thoras being in a better state of preservation than his son, Galen.
Eh, for that I just assume that the Stromic have good preservation techniques, and the tombs of their kings are tightly sealed.
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  #7732  
Old 02-08-2019, 07:50 AM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Why dont we discuss this over on our discord channel instead?
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  #7733  
Old 02-08-2019, 06:37 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Decide isn't there for some reason.
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  #7734  
Old 02-09-2019, 05:33 PM
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I still cant believe the mods havent found my alt account on the discord.
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  #7735  
Old 02-10-2019, 10:28 AM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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I still can't believe you think they care.
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And Lordaeron

ffs I'm the only one who cares aren't I
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And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
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  #7736  
Old 02-10-2019, 05:16 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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  #7737  
Old 02-11-2019, 12:19 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Well, there goes Gurzog.
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  #7738  
Old 02-11-2019, 03:01 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Wild guessing here, but...

I can totally see an ogre using this model as a base:




Also, when you analyze Rexxar's face sans mask, it's just an update of the old ogre face, sans horn. Ears, mouth, nose, small eyes... even the tatoos around the eyes. You can even notice the "slot" on the forehead where the horn should be!



So, yeah, I think they are coming. They'll be the Horde's 6th and final allied race.
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  #7739  
Old 02-11-2019, 04:50 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I don't know, I could as easily see such a thing implying playable Mok'nathal, and they'd at least be viable scale-wise without compromising their thematic "look."

The thing is, ogres are supposed to be bigger than players. So big their thudding footsteps often resonate in-game when they run. So big their gait has to be animated slower than any of the player races' to produce the proper effect of something massive lumbering around. So big their most basic racial props and buildings are all visibly scaled-up to be larger than the equivalents for player races.

Having ogres that are small enough to function as player models in the same environments as existing player models feels to me like it'd defeat the whole point of their being ogres. I'm not saying it isn't something Blizz would go ahead and do anyway, but it just doesn't strike me as a particularly great idea.
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  #7740  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:17 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Not to mention that Mok'nathal are more pallatable, appeal to a wider audience and are even closer to the silhouette of a Vrykul than Kul Tirans are, putting salt on the wound of Alliance fans.
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  #7741  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:23 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
I don't know, I could as easily see such a thing implying playable Mok'nathal, and they'd at least be viable scale-wise without compromising their thematic "look."

The thing is, ogres are supposed to be bigger than players. So big their thudding footsteps often resonate in-game when they run. So big their gait has to be animated slower than any of the player races' to produce the proper effect of something massive lumbering around. So big their most basic racial props and buildings are all visibly scaled-up to be larger than the equivalents for player races.

Having ogres that are small enough to function as player models in the same environments as existing player models feels to me like it'd defeat the whole point of their being ogres. I'm not saying it isn't something Blizz would go ahead and do anyway, but it just doesn't strike me as a particularly great idea.
I tend to agree. Mok’Nathal are more practical than ogres. I could easily be wrong.

Maybe Rexxar will rally a clan of one or the other.
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  #7742  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:34 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Not to mention that Mok'nathal are more pallatable, appeal to a wider audience and are even closer to the silhouette of a Vrykul than Kul Tirans are, putting salt on the wound of Alliance fans.
Honestly vrykul wouldn't work for the same reasons as ogres. People calling for them to be playable tend to overlook just how big vrykul really are. Night elves and draenei generally top out around a vrykul's midsection, meaning the vrykul in-game average twice as tall (and proportionately, at least twice as wide across) as the two tallest Alliance races.

Well, they did anyway. Strange as it is to think about, if the standard size of Kul Tiran NPC's in-game caries over to the player models, as of 8.1.5 humans may in effect become the physically largest race in the Alliance, surpassing both night elves and draenei in height and bulk.
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  #7743  
Old 02-11-2019, 06:03 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
I don't know, I could as easily see such a thing implying playable Mok'nathal, and they'd at least be viable scale-wise without compromising their thematic "look."

The thing is, ogres are supposed to be bigger than players. So big their thudding footsteps often resonate in-game when they run. So big their gait has to be animated slower than any of the player races' to produce the proper effect of something massive lumbering around. So big their most basic racial props and buildings are all visibly scaled-up to be larger than the equivalents for player races.

Having ogres that are small enough to function as player models in the same environments as existing player models feels to me like it'd defeat the whole point of their being ogres. I'm not saying it isn't something Blizz would go ahead and do anyway, but it just doesn't strike me as a particularly great idea.
Mok'nathal are a possibility as well, but I think ogres would be better.

Ogres do not need to be as big as the NPCs. The NPCs are often scaled up a lot to appear impressive, but playable ogres could be just a tad bigger than tauren. Someone in the official forums said he used Kovork's disguise and a potion of giant strength and walked around Silvermoon, Orgrimmar and other places. As per his account, he was quite big, but didn't have any trouble passing throug doors.

Another thing that calls my attention is Rexxar's face. As I compared above, it's an HD model of the old ogre (pre-draenor) face. I remembered back in WoD some interview where someone questioned if ogres in the old world would be updated, and Blizzard answered that the WoD model wouldn't be used to replace old world ogres, that those would be updated eventually.

Plans change, of course (still waiting the permanent Dustwallow Marsh update that was supposedly coming after the Theramore event), but I think the kul tiran model could be a good opportunity to make ogres playable AND replace the old world models.

I really think we may see that by the end of BfA. If not ogres, then mok'nathal. But I'd prefer the former.
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  #7744  
Old 02-11-2019, 10:00 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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  #7745  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:12 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I would hate to see what explanation they come up with to have Leoroxx join Sylvanas's Horde.
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  #7746  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:39 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I would hate to see what explanation they come up with to have Leoroxx join Sylvanas's Horde.
He scarcely wanted anything to do with Thrall's Horde, so I hesitate to even speculate but...Alliance does something pointless and nonsensical that kills Leoroxx, leading to the rest of the Mok'nathal joining the Horde for protection and revenge?

After their completely backward reasoning for invading Dazar'alor, I could totally imagine the Alliance rationalizing that if they attacked the Mok'nathal it would somehow convince them to not look to the Horde for help, only to be surprised when it predictably drives them to do that very thing.
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  #7747  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:29 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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If the Mok'nathal join by the end of BFA, I'd wager Sylvanas would already have been dealt with.

I'm still pissed off that all signs point towards Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0.
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  #7748  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:16 PM
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If the Mok'nathal join by the end of BFA, I'd wager Sylvanas would already have been dealt with.
Be it mok'nathal or ogres, I think it will be Rexxar calling friends to fight whatever will be the last challenge.

Quote:
I'm still pissed off that all signs point towards Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0.
Me too. I refused to think this would just be MoP 2.0, but the story has failed to deviate from the expected course for now.

-------------------------

Kul tiran dances are in. Totally new animations!

https://www.wowhead.com/news=290244/...nce-animations


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  #7749  
Old 02-12-2019, 10:33 PM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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I HIGHLY DOUBT there will be a Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0 as the final raid - or a raid as part of the expansion; but the deposing of Sylvanas would be by the Horde in a more personal story for the faction ...However.

I do expect the final raid to be an Alliance v Horde akin to Battle of Dazar'alor.
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  #7750  
Old 02-13-2019, 01:36 AM
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