Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > Scrolls of Lore > Halls of Lordaeron

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #28626  
Old 09-07-2017, 12:52 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
A large part of that has to do with the partitioning of the Middle East with Sykes Pico (?) I feel. They aren't in an organic form of a common culture with a common nation-state. They are patched together so you get a whole host of Kurds who are in countries which are not Kurdistan and so there's usually conflict between them and between Shi'ites and Sunnis. Iraq is hard to govern when most of the country is Shi'ite but a portion is Sunni and that Sunni portion ended up sympathizing with ISIS.

You would have to somehow figure out a way to get certain countries to live and let live. Add onto that there's the need for further economic development and the proxy war between Iran and the Saudis and it's a difficult issue to manoeuvre.
Sykes-Picot definitely didn't make things better, but the problems in the ME predate it by quite a bit. You've always had a lot of fragmentation—isolated sects and tribes that pretty much do their own thing. Even in primarily Sunni or Shi'ite areas, you'll often have enclaves of the other group, which would make for a hellishly complicated borders if followed.

Interestingly, Iran used to have quite a lot of Sunni Muslims until the Safavids basically declared their empire to be Shi'ite. But Iran's quite different from the rest of the ME, and has a better track record when it comes to strong states, in part because they actually have some meaningful degree of nationalism.

Of course, the Kurds, Baluchis, and Iranian Arabs aren't always happy about this (though my understanding is that Iranian Kurds are at least somewhat better treated than their Turkish counterparts).
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #28627  
Old 09-07-2017, 01:58 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

Elune
Mertico's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,261

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
Sykes-Picot definitely didn't make things better, but the problems in the ME predate it by quite a bit. You've always had a lot of fragmentation—isolated sects and tribes that pretty much do their own thing. Even in primarily Sunni or Shi'ite areas, you'll often have enclaves of the other group, which would make for a hellishly complicated borders if followed.

Interestingly, Iran used to have quite a lot of Sunni Muslims until the Safavids basically declared their empire to be Shi'ite. But Iran's quite different from the rest of the ME, and has a better track record when it comes to strong states, in part because they actually have some meaningful degree of nationalism.

Of course, the Kurds, Baluchis, and Iranian Arabs aren't always happy about this (though my understanding is that Iranian Kurds are at least somewhat better treated than their Turkish counterparts).
The problems of the Middle East are based around how the family unit organizes itself and the many ethnic groups that call it home. The clan is a legitimate political unit there. Islam in many ways re-enforces this, look at the cousin marriage numbers. But to blame Islam solely is also wrong. It's just the way their culture is. The Catholic Church more or less put an end to it in Europe and in parts of Asia there were also prohibitions on it.

Quote:
Confucius described marriage as "the union of two surnames, in friendship and in love".[49] In ancient China, some evidence indicates in some cases, two clans had a longstanding arrangement wherein they would only marry members of the other clan. Some men also practiced sororate marriage, that is, a marriage to a former wife's sister or a polygynous marriage to both sisters. This would have the effect of eliminating parallel-cousin marriage as an option, but would leave cross-cousin marriage acceptable.[50] In the ancient system of the Erya dating from around the third century BC, the words for the two types of cross cousins were identical, with father's brother's children and mother's sister's children both being distinct.[51] However, whereas it may not have been permissible at that time, marriage with the mother's sister's children also became possible by the third century AD.[52] Eventually, the mother's sister's children and cross cousins shared one set of terms, with only the father's brother's children retaining a separate set.[53] This usage remains today, with biao (表) cousins considered "outside" and paternal tang (堂) cousins being of the same house.[54] In some periods in Chinese history, all cousin marriage was legally prohibited, as law codes dating from the Ming Dynasty attest. However, enforcement proved difficult and by the subsequent Qing Dynasty, the former laws had been restored.
Reply With Quote
  #28628  
Old 09-07-2017, 03:41 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
The problems of the Middle East are based around how the family unit organizes itself and the many ethnic groups that call it home. The clan is a legitimate political unit there. Islam in many ways re-enforces this, look at the cousin marriage numbers. But to blame Islam solely is also wrong. It's just the way their culture is. The Catholic Church more or less put an end to it in Europe and in parts of Asia there were also prohibitions on it.
I'd say the cousin marriage and the geography are problems that feed into each other—it's easier to fall back on that kind of marriage if travel is difficult or dangerous. But yeah, it's a problem.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #28629  
Old 09-07-2017, 06:12 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

Elune
Kakwakas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: US
Posts: 8,186

Darkmoon Card: Elementals

Soooo, why hasn't Duetere's son been murdered yet? It should be legal for anyone to do so now, right?
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-phi...hipment-2017-9
Are the Phillippines just being run by a drug cartel that wanted to get rid of competition...?
__________________
Member #14

Last edited by Kakwakas; 09-07-2017 at 06:22 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #28630  
Old 09-07-2017, 07:35 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

Elune
Mertico's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,261

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
I'd say the cousin marriage and the geography are problems that feed into each other—it's easier to fall back on that kind of marriage if travel is difficult or dangerous. But yeah, it's a problem.
It feeds back on itself, yeah.
Reply With Quote
  #28631  
Old 09-08-2017, 12:48 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

Elune
C9H20's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 12,105

Default

@Lon, I get what you're saying about "getting shit in order" through a fascist system, rather than the wars many of them end up burning up in. But even with that there are just as many example of things not getting better under a fascist dictatorship, if not more.

The success stories of fascism are Spain, Chile and arguably Germany and Japan before WWII. However what about the dozens of German fascist puppets all over Europe? They were pretty much murderous shitholes and they never got better. What about Argentina? What about Italy? It never got people to live better, arguably it was worse even without war. And what about all those Middle-Eastern dictators? I mean obviously we see now they are light years ahead of the islamic shitholes that emerge in their place, but many of them ran or still run pretty shitty states.

The point is you can't just focus on the good examples and ignore the bad. There are many cultural, social, political and economic reasons which determine if one state will prosper under a more heavy-handed govt. or would just turn to even greater shit.

PS. Older people around here are often quite fond of the old commie govt. Back then they had jobs, easy living, they traveled a lot and were a part of a country that was well known and respected. The nationalists only brought war and poor living standards. Now I argue that the way commies ran things pretty much ensured that we'd get where we now are but that is how they and even some younger people feel.
Reply With Quote
  #28632  
Old 09-08-2017, 12:54 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
@Lon, I get what you're saying about "getting shit in order" through a fascist system, rather than the wars many of them end up burning up in. But even with that there are just as many example of things not getting better under a fascist dictatorship, if not more.

The success stories of fascism are Spain, Chile and arguably Germany and Japan before WWII. However what about the dozens of German fascist puppets all over Europe? They were pretty much murderous shitholes and they never got better. What about Argentina? What about Italy? It never got people to live better, arguably it was worse even without war. And what about all those Middle-Eastern dictators? I mean obviously we see now they are light years ahead of the islamic shitholes that emerge in their place, but many of them ran or still run pretty shitty states.

The point is you can't just focus on the good examples and ignore the bad. There are many cultural, social, political and economic reasons which determine if one state will prosper under a more heavy-handed govt. or would just turn to even greater shit.

PS. Older people around here are often quite fond of the old commie govt. Back then they had jobs, easy living, they traveled a lot and were a part of a country that was well known and respected. The nationalists only brought war and poor living standards. Now I argue that the way commies ran things pretty much ensured that we'd get where we now are but that is how they and even some younger people feel.
From my understanding, both Germany and Japan still suffered a lot of poverty after the fascists came to power. A lot of the resources were going toward the various wars they started. Fascism is very much a "feels before reals" ideology. Fascist governments appeal to nationalism in order to hide serious deficiencies (granted, this is hardly unique to fascism), and arrests those who point out the problems.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #28633  
Old 09-11-2017, 07:45 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,161

Default

__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #28634  
Old 09-12-2017, 03:12 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

Problemsolver
Aneurysm's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Here, there, and everywhere.
Posts: 9,275

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Whether or not it's true it's a significant blow against pax Americana and the global status quo that your rivals are increasingly vocal about your regression. Everything from Putin mocking Trump's ineptitude, to Kim Jong-Un ramping up his rhetoric (as well as acting out with his constant missile testing) has me occasionally fearing a global political paradigm shift, and I can't imagine it'll go over smoothly.
Reply With Quote
  #28635  
Old 09-12-2017, 11:41 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
Whether or not it's true it's a significant blow against pax Americana and the global status quo that your rivals are increasingly vocal about your regression. Everything from Putin mocking Trump's ineptitude, to Kim Jong-Un ramping up his rhetoric (as well as acting out with his constant missile testing) has me occasionally fearing a global political paradigm shift, and I can't imagine it'll go over smoothly.
People have always made these kind of claims. They are playing to their base. It isn't like the US is going to wipe someone out for threatening our honor or something. They can feel more powerful than they actually are.

They are also poking our partisan divisions. They know they can make Americans hate each other when they make these claims.
Reply With Quote
  #28636  
Old 09-12-2017, 01:21 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

Elune
C9H20's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 12,105

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
People have always made these kind of claims. They are playing to their base. It isn't like the US is going to wipe someone out for threatening our honor or something. They can feel more powerful than they actually are.

They are also poking our partisan divisions. They know they can make Americans hate each other when they make these claims.
That'd be my guess too. Make yourself seem crafty and capable and let the enemy tear each other to pieces over an event that (imo) never happened. Technically the Russians would love to see the US go down in sectarian flames, racial, religious (or atheist), political, economic... it is the easiest way to beat you, let you do yourself in. This divide and conquer strategy is part of the doctrine developed by a Russian geopolitical strategist who some believe has influenced the Russian top. But again while they might like this I doubt they are capable of organizing this, you are ruining yourselves without (much) outside help most likely.
Reply With Quote
  #28637  
Old 09-12-2017, 02:37 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,161

Default

Apparently there's ethnic cleansing in Myanmar on top of everything else going on

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...inner-u-n-says
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #28638  
Old 09-12-2017, 02:52 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

Elune
ijffdrie's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: A rock of certainty amid an ocean of possibility
Posts: 15,786

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Apparently there's ethnic cleansing in Myanmar on top of everything else going on
Wait, that's only now reaching your part of the infosphere? It's been one of the main news items here for more than a month.

Though from what Bullroarer mentioned ages back, this thing has been just on the brink of boiling over for many years.
__________________
This is not a signature.
Reply With Quote
  #28639  
Old 09-12-2017, 03:53 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 42,139

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
That'd be my guess too. Make yourself seem crafty and capable and let the enemy tear each other to pieces over an event that (imo) never happened. Technically the Russians would love to see the US go down in sectarian flames, racial, religious (or atheist), political, economic... it is the easiest way to beat you, let you do yourself in. This divide and conquer strategy is part of the doctrine developed by a Russian geopolitical strategist who some believe has influenced the Russian top. But again while they might like this I doubt they are capable of organizing this, you are ruining yourselves without (much) outside help most likely.
With the billions of dollars that goes into political advertising, the mainstream media, academia, and people's actual lives influencing their political persuasion what the Russians could possible do is a drop in the bucket. I think it is just easier for people to rationalize something like this than it is to accept that their assumptions were wrong and their ideas were rejected. There has to be a mitigating factor or it causes a lot of uncomfortable dissonance. Pretending that their detractors are just so stupid and whose different cultural factors and experiences are inconsequential to their perspective also gives them a way to feel superior to other people. Considering the kind of people that voted for Obama and then later pulled the lever for Trump there is a clear pattern in their problems and issues.

People like to harp on Trump's disapproval rating but the Democratic and Republican Party have worse approval ratings. Our national mood is full of cynicism, distrust, and contempt. The opposition isn't just someone who has different ideas on how to run society, they are evil. I think a big part of this partisanship is caused by the lack of a military draft and the large influx of immigration we have had over the past few decades. Americans in the past bonded over the fact that they fought in wars together. The country wasn't simply some large arbitrary geographical region with a bunch of different cultures sharing a government. People actually felt kinship with the country. The large influx of immigrants who are dissimilar to the native population also stretched a lot of commonality that existed.

It is sad how easy it for Putin and his cohorts to fuel intranational hatred in the US. It doesn't take much fuel at all. A simple comment will make one side intensify their hatred for the other. As a unified country we are by far the most powerful country in the world but we are not as unified as a country like Russia. It is certainly our weakness. I don't think it will be our undoing but it will limit our potential as a nation. I think one day there will be a resolution because we have seen it worse before and we survived. Our system might even be able to find a constitutional solution that pushes us forward even if it doesn't make everyone happy.
Reply With Quote
  #28640  
Old 09-12-2017, 04:49 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,161

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Wait, that's only now reaching your part of the infosphere? It's been one of the main news items here for more than a month.

Though from what Bullroarer mentioned ages back, this thing has been just on the brink of boiling over for many years.
Sadly yes, I'm really worried based on what I've read, international focus is elsewhere so there might not be much condemnation with NK, all the natural disasters, and Russia in the spotlight
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #28641  
Old 09-17-2017, 11:30 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,332
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #28642  
Old 09-17-2017, 11:50 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Hmm, I probably don't know enough about the context in Brazil to really offer much. Is the gallery funded with tax money? Since, as an American, I can understand why people would protest art that they find objectionable if it's funded with their taxes (personally, I don't have an objection to this exhibit, but I would be very angry if my tax dollars were used to exhibit something like pro-Nazi art—so in fairness, I can't say they don't have a right to protest if they feel their taxes have been misused). The First Amendment protects against government censorship, not social opinion.

But, again, "as an American". I have no idea what guarantees Brazil has or does not have in regard to free speech.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"

Last edited by HlaaluStyle; 09-17-2017 at 11:53 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #28643  
Old 09-17-2017, 12:25 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,332
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
Hmm, I probably don't know enough about the context in Brazil to really offer much. Is the gallery funded with tax money? Since, as an American, I can understand why people would protest art that they find objectionable if it's funded with their taxes (personally, I don't have an objection to this exhibit, but I would be very angry if my tax dollars were used to exhibit something like pro-Nazi art—so in fairness, I can't say they don't have a right to protest if they feel their taxes have been misused). The First Amendment protects against government censorship, not social opinion.

But, again, "as an American". I have no idea what guarantees Brazil has or does not have in regard to free speech.
Quote:
Rouanet Law
Connected to: Law Brazil Income Tax
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Rouanet Law is a Brazilian law that was intended to encourage cultural investments that can be used by firms and citizens to help finance cultural projects. This law makes possible to deduct a certain percentage of the investment off the Income Tax.

All projects must be approved by Brazilian Ministry of Culture that examines technical feasibility of activities.

Companies can deduct up to 4% of income tax on projects and people can deduct 6%.
There are a lot of famous musicians, however, who receive benefit from said law. You don't see any "right wing campaign" ganging up on those.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #28644  
Old 09-17-2017, 12:47 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
There are a lot of famous musicians, however, who receive benefit from said law. You don't see any "right wing campaign" ganging up on those.
Yeah, that sort of thing is always a complication.

I mean, some of those who protest controversial art exhibits in the US wouldn't have any problem with tax money going toward some kind of Christian art exhibit. I'd say it's a case-by-case basis; if a lot of people are angry about how their tax dollars are being spent on such things, you have a problem. But one needs to be fair about it. Publicly funded art should probably try to be fairly broad in its appeal. Which may also mean bland. But so be it. The bolder things can stay in the private arena.

But I'm already going back to American contexts, so it's probably a good sign that I should step back since I'm not sufficiently familiar with the subject you're bringing up.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #28645  
Old 09-17-2017, 12:58 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,332
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
But I'm already going back to American contexts, so it's probably a good sign that I should step back since I'm not sufficiently familiar with the subject you're bringing up.
Nah. The purpose of discussing stuff in here is to get as much as you can from different perspectives, right?

Limiting the discussion to only those familiar with the sociopolitic context results in an echo chamber sooner or later.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #28646  
Old 09-17-2017, 01:03 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Nah. The purpose of discussing stuff in here is to get as much as you can from different perspectives, right?

Limiting the discussion to only those familiar with the sociopolitic context results in an echo chamber sooner or later.
Sure, I just don't know how much I can meaningfully say about art and endowment in Brazil.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"

Last edited by HlaaluStyle; 09-17-2017 at 01:17 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #28647  
Old 09-17-2017, 03:38 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,161

Default

I feel they shouldn't have caved, this only sets precedent for further restrictions and oppression of LGBT folks
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #28648  
Old 09-17-2017, 04:25 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,332
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I feel they shouldn't have caved, this only sets precedent for further restrictions and oppression of LGBT folks
That's the whole debate going on around here: people getting permission in the court to shut down and censor art.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #28649  
Old 09-17-2017, 04:56 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,161

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
That's the whole debate going on around here: people getting permission in the court to shut down and censor art.
Oh it always starts with the arts but never ends there

Look at the reasons the right-wing folks gave

They said lgbt folk were pedophiles, bestial, aggressive, etc

Not long till the bigotry gets worse if it's Not curbed
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #28650  
Old 09-18-2017, 10:13 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,332
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

We are such advanced civilization
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
politics

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.