In the story, particularly modern lore, Bleeding Hollow is characterized as an honorable clan.

Kilrogg deadeye is shown to be upset about the loss of shamanism, and the orcs predemonic traditions. He knew Gul'dan had a pact with demons, and was very loyal to Doomhammer. Kilrogg challenged Danath to a one on one duel, when Kilrogg was killed, his clan honored the agreeement, and let Danath reach Ner'zhul.

So why is Warlords of Draenor portraying Bleeding Hollow as a bunch of psychos who kidnap people to turn them into monsters?

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Perhaps they forgot that that's what they wrote. Apparently they forgot Stormreaver Clan's origins with one of the archaeology items.

Or, perhaps they did it because #savage.

Because the method used to send Garrosh back made ripples in the timestream, changing things that you wouldn't think should change.

I'm telling you guys, WoD is Flashpoint.

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Fucking Epic :X

Because Blizzard won't allow me to slaughter "good and honorable" orcs.

They seem to be having extreme Shamanic traditions now. I'd say perhaps they were leveled out by the Demons. I'd probably compare the transforming slaves into Dire-orcs to the Gerubashi creating Dire Troll Berserkers. Both are #savage shamanistic societies.

We have yet to actually meet Kilrogg, there's no reason why his clan being #Savage jungle warriors should stop him from being similarly honorable. I imagine now he's simply loyal to Hellscream as opposed to Doomhammer.

Speaking of the duel with Danath, I recall Auchindoun being somewhere where Kilrogg was actually afraid to go. Maybe because he knew from his vision that that is where he would die?

Being Psychos doesn't stop them from being honorable, nor does their creation of Dire Orcs. I find it kinda cool, although it should be consensual.

I also had another thought. It's hard to imagine why a clan of jungle Warriors would be in charge of operations in Grim Batol. But, IIRC, they were in charge of the Oil refineries, which means they were sailing. I could easily see a Jungle Warrior being at home in the crow's nest of a ship, looking down, waiting to jump on top of a boarding party, or jump into the rigging of an enemy ship.

Not to mention, the Bleeding Hollow on Draenor were living peacefully in their village, until they were attacked by the Murkblood.

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The part about the Stormreavers was a result of a non-lore guy writing archaeology items. He admitted it was a mistake so hopefully it has been corrected.

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Gurubashi, not Gerubashi.

Most Dire Trolls(Not berserkers) are a naturally re occuring phenemon. Only Drakuru was shown to create them unnaturally.

All Dire Orcs we've seen have been created through Fel energy, and other corruption, so it is very out of character for the Bleeding Hollow.

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I hate what WoD is doing to Kilrogg and the Bleeding Hollow.

Kilrogg is supposed to be an old shrewd badass that if you only went off age should have been out of power long ago. He cunning and did unscrupulous things to improve his clan's power, but was still honorable in many regards as you have pointed out.

In WoD he's just a psycho on drugs, not even old.

Blizzard disregarding previous characterisation?

This is preposterous and without precedent!



On a more serious note, WoD seems intent on hitting every orc clan (sans the honorable savage frostwolves) with the savage/evil bat

If anything the fact that they are not cannibals, defilers, sex offenders, necromancers or anything that carries a primitive and brutish conotation is a surprise

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When we learn more about Nerzhul, some of us get the impression that he's not completely evil, he's just trying to fit in with the Iron Horde. We don't know how Kilrogg or Kargath will behave.

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Seems to me like these dire orcs are being made thru shamanism, corruption free.

The MU bleeding hollows are much better than the AU bleeding hollows.

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Say no to genocide!
Save the Nightborne!

Characters/groups from previous non-WoW sources acting totally out of character once they're in the MMO?

Oh golly gee whizz I haven't seen that before.

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No, guys, no..

You are trying to rationalize it.

You can't rationalize this....

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Repost from the main War Crimes discussion thread:

Alright, I've been thinking a lot about this. In fact, I'm probably thinking and reading too much into it. But if I'm right, it could make some people happy.

In the epilogue, Garrosh arrives on Draenor.

If this means what I think it means, it means that the time travel aspect of Warlords of Draenor has been removed entirely.

Garrosh does not go back in time and create an alternate universe by changing history, he goes to a pre-existing alternate universe.

That would mean there could be all manner of discrepancies between the two, like the Bleeding Hollow's differing portrayal.

I hope that's the not the case, as otherwise that means we cannot regard anything from WoD's backstory and canon to the main universe, and there would be two different histories of Draenor to take into account.

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But the devs aren't sure about the mechanics behind this new Draenor. We only know that they want us to enjoy Draenor and they aren' willing to make some complicated explanations. It's an open question for now.

Maybe it's bad that we wouldn't be able to regard AU Draenor lore as relevant to the MU. But it would spare us from yet another wave of retcons, which would also retcon some stuff from the WoW era novels.

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And how all of this differ from his previous characterization ?

We didn't now the traditions of the Bleeding Hollow that Kilrogg was unhappy to see disappear. It may very well be what we see in WoD. There is no pact with demons which could explain an uneasiness with the Iron Horde, and it seems he even managed to avoid the industrialization of his Clan and Tanaan.

You should remember that the Bleeding Hollows were always told to be savages, since they gouged on eyes out of its orbit. And what we know of them as of now doesn't contradict one bit what we knew before : you can kidnap other orcs, turn them into Dire Orcs but still be an honourable people, if you follow a certain set of rules and that you don't divert from it.

That's probably what Kilrogg and his clan did when confronted by Danath : a Mak'gora followed by the respect deserved to the winner, even a human. And at that time, Kilrogg had, at the very least, twenty more years behind him, which would have cooled him, appeasing his furious youth, and he had spent a lot of time in the Horde and on Azeroth, which explain easily the differences between his previous portrayal and the one in WoD.

Isn't Kilrogg the only one who did that?

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"Furious youth"? He was already considered venerable in age at the time of the Rise of the Horde:
Though we do get the sense that the Bleeding Hollow clan was #savage:
It's also worth noting that Kilrogg Deadeye provided a lot of rational judgment to Doomhammer in regards to tactical knowledge, particularly as it related to the dwarves.

Beyond the Dark Portal:
He was. "Deadeye" was a moniker he gave himself.

Is it really that hard to rationalize that just maybe even in a clan with some particularly cruel and vicious traditions, someone on a comparatively even keel and with a good head for tactics and strategy rose to become their chieftain?

Hell, there's no need for whitewashing to admit that Doomhammer was basically a clear-thinking orc (if still brutal and monstrous) who rose to power and stayed there by having the presence of mind to effectively control a Horde full of raging maniacs.

Let the Bleeding Hollow be a bunch of vicious jerks; if anything it would justify Kilrogg being a reasonably effective chieftain. A bunch of nasty and crazy people taking orders from another nasty and crazy person usually results in too much nasty craziness to actually get things done (example: nearly every evil cult in WarCraft). On the other hand, when they're led by someone who's got his head screwed on straight, then their nastiness and craziness is likely to actually be put to good use.

Just wait and see. We still haven't seen much about the Bleeding Hollow, so I wouldn't judge them so fast. For example, Ner'zhul at first seemed to be evil just for the sake of being evil, but when we saw more of him, it was revealed that he was just despereate to save his people, so he stayed quite true to his original characterization. We still haven't seen anything from Kilrogg, or any chieftain besides Durotan and Ner'zul for that matter, so it's possible that he's still the honorable orc we know.

Aren't they using the blood of the prisonders to (temporary) turn themselves into berserkers? Also, the ingredients seem to be pretty natural (blood, mushrooms, different herbs etc.), so this transformation seems to be caused by shaman magic or alchemy rather than corruption like the previous dire orcs.

Orc honor. Orc honor. We cannot emphasize that enough.

Orc honor. As in, he died in protecting his master long enough for an evil spell to be cast in a befouled temple, so that infinite worlds could be ravaged and mercilessly destroyed by an insatiably conquering Horde.

Kilrogg's last heroic effort was to hold back the Alliance long enough so that, hopefully, untold innocent worlds could be ravaged and burned by his own monsters. "Psychos who kidnap people" is at least in the same ballpark.

I think you just put it perfectly.

I hope that too. It would turn all WoD's worldbuilding into trash.

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