RoC's manual said Ner'zhul searched for someone torn between light and darkness (Arthas). Both that and his actions from Hearthglen onward point towards the "really a bad person deep down to begin with" train.

My take on that was that he pushed Arthas from the light towards the darkness to make him a suitable vessel.

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Torn between light and darkness usually means "could go either way", not "Sucker is gonna fall like Google 2023 stock"

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What happens in 2023?

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He wouldn't be torn between light and dark if he were a "really a bad person deep down to begin with".

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He was quick resort to having a city torched. He was also quick to resort to stranding his troops and then double cross his hired goons right after. Mind you, he didn't have Frostmourne for either of those incidents.

He might not have been Death Knight level, but he was shady. I have the impression his "light" was how chipper he was when he wasn't in smash mode, and his "darkness" was how brutal he was.

Arthas was always weak, Arthas was always self-centered and self-righteous.

Arthas was not always a bad person, but he absolutely had the potential to be one.

Thing is, though. Ner'zhul spoke to him through the sword, but it was Arthas who chose to heed it, Arthas who chose to seek it out, Arthas who chose to pick it up to begin with. He was manipulated, but that manipulation wouldn't have worked if Arthas hadn't made the choices that he did.

And I don't think he regretted it at all.

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"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."

I've seen the interpretation that the past voices in TFT's Ascension cutscene were Arthas looking back on his crimes in guilt.

Google's newest model of self-driving car turns out to have serious security vulnerabilities.

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All things I am not a fan of the novel for.

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For what? That's implicated in the game too. Arthas was not a great person before becoming a death knight.

Arthas was a hero when it was easy to be a hero, the problem is he had this image of himself as this great conquering hero that he wasn't; an image of himself that he couldn't live up to. Which is why he does stupid things, it's why he mavericks himself.

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"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."

I disagree with that. He followed the path of vengeance, true, but I don't think he was weak. Purging Stratholme was, in my opinion, a hard choice. He made it quickly but a quick decision was necessary (talking from the WCIII point of view here). That situation in particular could actually suggest Uther and Jaina were weaker; neither was willing to truly confront him about his decision. He may have sought to be a hero but he was very willing to accept aid.

Arthas was a hero in a lot of ways. The first unequivocally wrong act he makes is betraying his mercenaries. Even then mercenaries aren't exactly a scrupulous lot.

He went against what his peers were saying when he felt it necessary. From Uther, to Jaina, to Muradin, he was willing to stand for what he believed in by any means necessary. Which speaks to me of strength of character.

Unlike the book version which seems to have is totally and completely consumed by the trauma of what happened with his horse. I dislike what that book did to Arthas.

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Implied in the game where?

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All over the place: the dialogue he says, the way he behaves, the way he acts towards those he loves. He's just a weak person. He has no conviction to his people or his principles. As a human paladin he was basically a self-righteous thug who was spoiled beyond belief. Making 'hard choices' (only one of which was even remotely understandable, and even then he botched it horribly) doesn't excuse him as a person. It might make him some what sympathetic I guess, but that doesn't mean he was a good or a strong person.

He's honestly a way more likable person as a Death Knight. More convicted, more honest, he forms genuine bonds with his allies. Especially in Frozen Throne he's just so much more genuine. It feels like he's got too much to prove in Scourge of Lordaeron.

He took the easy way out in all those circumstances. He whined and complained when Uther didn't go along with his plan and wasn't even willing to discuss the alternatives at all. And Uther did stand up to him -- the proper way. Going to the king.

I haven't read the book at all btw. So no opinion on it. Though I don't like the sound of a lot of it.

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"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."

The book cut out Arthas calling Kel'Thuzad a loyal friend. And goes out of its way to tell you that no, Arthas doesn't rate KT highly (he didn't rate Ner'zhul and other fellow Scourge highly either) .

That says it all, really.

Yeah I hate that. Screw moral complexity I guess.

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"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."

Honestly, I'm not sure how much of it is down to trying to be consistent with WotLK's portrayal of Arthas as a bumbling Sauron wannabe who was hogging the spotlight away from Ner'zhul against how much of it from Golden not playing the Undead Campaigns.

I just can't agree and don't see where you get that from the campaign

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So Arthas didn't do anything wrong when he suspended Uther's forces for their commander not going along with purging a city? Or when he double-crossed his hired goons to protect his skin?

Come on, he was more offended at hiring mercenaries than stranding his troops.

I have no idea what the cause of it was.

Okay. That's fair I guess.

I just think that anyone who's willing to purge a city without a second thought or who betrays his own mercenaries, or alienates everyone who loves him is more concerned with his own glory than he is with actually helping people. And he does things not out of personal strength, but out of trying to prove something.

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"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."

I never saw any of it as glory or trying to prove something he was just on the vengeance train and no one could talk him off of it.

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Remember how Arthas got indignant at Hearthglen?

It was completely for glory.

That whole speech at Stratholme is completely self-aggrandizing. It had nothing to do with vengeance. And if it did, it was because Mal'ganis made him look like a fool and prevented him from being the hero that he wanted to be.

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"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."

If Arthas wasn't shady to begin with (to the point of accepting a role in the Scourge), then how come he didn't leave the Scourge in TFT or at least leave Ner'zhul to his fate?

Well I think it's more complicated than that, and I wouldn't call him 'shady'. It's more that he was more self-motivated than he claims to be. Even the phrase 'you weren't there to see what Mal'ganis did to my homeland'. It's all about him.

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"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."