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  #201  
Old 11-23-2017, 11:12 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Seven thousand people upvoting several different memes about Teldrassil surely shows that they like the idea. How can you not think that?

You can open the wow subreddit and any time to see how hard it is for a post to get over five thousand upvotes.

Your comparison would be valid if I showed the score and interactions of submissions that regarded the BFA reveal.

As for your second point, it's Warcraft. Imagine the fan backlash there would be from High Elf fans if Warcraft III was a MMO.
If a meme is funny or not does not amount to wholesale endorsement of the decision to burn teldrassil, they're not remotely equivalent
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  #202  
Old 11-23-2017, 11:59 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
If a meme is funny or not does not amount to wholesale endorsement of the decision to burn teldrassil, they're not remotely equivalent
I doubt any of the "deeply offended Night Elf fans from the community" would upvote that. I doubt Kyalin and Icefrost would upvote those submissions. And they wouldn't upvote it because they don't buy the idea. You can take that as a starting point to eventually reach the conclusion that it's a genuine positive response, and massive at that.
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  #203  
Old 11-23-2017, 12:09 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
I doubt any of the "deeply offended Night Elf fans from the community" would upvote that. I doubt Kyalin and Icefrost would upvote those submissions. And they wouldn't upvote it because they don't buy the idea. You can take that as a starting point to eventually reach the conclusion that it's a genuine positive response, and massive at that.
I think you're stretching how "massive" the response is in regard to the whole player base, moreover someone doesn't have to be a super diehard to disagree with the decision to burn teldrassil, folks closer to the middle like me might update a funny meme but not think the actual burning is a good idea, he'll some of the people updating might not even be subscribed for all we know

You've decided on your conclusion and can no longer imagine the evidence isn't obvious despite it being full of holes
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  #204  
Old 11-23-2017, 12:26 PM
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🚬✌🏻👄 @ Krainz’s troll post working and the faction war bringing us to this point.
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  #205  
Old 11-23-2017, 12:28 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I think you're stretching how "massive" the response is in regard to the whole player base, moreover someone doesn't have to be a super diehard to disagree with the decision to burn teldrassil, folks closer to the middle like me might update a funny meme but not think the actual burning is a good idea, he'll some of the people updating might not even be subscribed for all we know

You've decided on your conclusion and can no longer imagine the evidence isn't obvious despite it being full of holes
Seven. Thousand. People.

You seem to be underestimating the impact of that.
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  #206  
Old 11-23-2017, 01:50 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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🚬✌🏻👄 @ Krainz’s troll post working and the faction war bringing us to this point.
There is a special place in Hell for emoji users.
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #207  
Old 11-23-2017, 02:12 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Seven. Thousand. People.

You seem to be underestimating the impact of that.
To be fair, its reddit.

A picture of a cat shitting can get 7k
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  #208  
Old 11-23-2017, 02:31 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Seven. Thousand. People.

You seem to be underestimating the impact of that.
You are overestimating, with over a million people playing that's maybe a percent or two
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  #209  
Old 11-23-2017, 02:37 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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To be fair, its reddit.

A picture of a cat shitting can get 7k
ITT: Shitting cars sell more than family elves
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  #210  
Old 11-24-2017, 02:40 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
One of the problems night elves' development has is that over the years, WoW has gradually frittered away the detriments of arcane magic, increasingly associating the problems of its addiction and propensity for attracting demons to other, circumstantial causes.

Consequently, with arcane magic losing so much of its inherent associated risks, the Darnassian night elves become the elves who abandoned the strength and conveniences of civilization out of fear of abusing a source of power that has fewer and fewer real drawbacks with every expansion, making them out to be little more than backward savages with inferior magic. Their violence in WC3 used to be prominent for good reason; they'd replaced the vast yet highly self-destructive power they once had in the arcane with the balanced, rejuvenating might and savagery of Nature, be it in their individual viciousness or the magics of their druids.

Unfortunately, one of the exacerbating factors of the shift away from this is the way so many of arcane magic's inherent risks - the physiological addiction, the aggressively mutative symptoms of overindulgence and withdrawal, the attraction of demons from the Nether, etc. - became very specifically attached to elves and then subsequently got "solved." First we got to see the night elves who shunned the arcane join forces with a bunch of Alliance races who tossed it around willy-nilly with no ill effects to themselves (and no constant demonic incursions either, despite the absence of an Order of Tirisfal to clean up such things and keep them hush-hush), making them just the backward primitives of their own faction who stubbornly wouldn't touch arcane magic. Then we got to see the blood elves in TBC, and now the Nightborne in Legion reclaim their arcane legacies with the detrimental strings no longer attached, making the night elves the backward primitives of their own species who stubbornly won't touch arcane magic.

Now we live in an Azeroth where basically as long as you're not already a power-hungry maniac or a recklessly irresponsible person to begin with, the only real danger to using arcane magic turns out to just be not balancing it out with another kind of magic. And it can even be Holy/Light or Nature magic, of all things, both magics of the night elves post-Sundering. In the process of that development unfolding, they've systematically retconned the night elves from a society that became mighty by a different path after learning from the errors and terrible risks of delving into the arcane, into them turning away from the better, more powerful path to embrace a lesser one because they were too stupid to figure out how to make the arcane safe for use. Meanwhile, every other offshoot of their race figures it out in the span of a single expansion and holds onto their newly perfected arcane powers without the nasty drawbacks that originally led the night elves to abandon it.

By in effect liberating the arcane of its built-in hazards, WoW has increasingly changed the portrayal of everything that made the night elves strong during WC3 into nothing more than symptoms of weaknesses. They straight-up got rid of any good reason for them to abandon the arcane besides irrational distrust of it, so now they just come across as pointlessly stubborn at best, and monumentally stupid at worst.
Not to mention that absolutely everything about the Nightborne straight up shits on whatever it is the Night Elves have going for them. Whether that's much more engaging characters or far more compelling stories the writers actually put work into telling to establish them as a natural fit for the world.

Thalyssra will be remembered as a hero who stood up to a demon-fueled empire.

Tyrande will be remembered as a shitty diplomat who couldn't do anything about her entire city burning and is taking shots from a literal 17-year old.

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 11-24-2017 at 02:52 AM..
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  #211  
Old 11-25-2017, 06:29 PM
Mending Mending is offline

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There is a special place in Hell for emoji users.
🔥🔥💁🏻♂️🔥🔥

^ Me in that hell tbh
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  #212  
Old 11-25-2017, 07:28 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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In regards to WoW making Arcane less dangerous, couldn't you call Malygos being a boss the first big sign of this? I mean, he flies in saying that magic needs more regulation and instead of being aided he's instead "going too far" and has to be killed.
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  #213  
Old 11-25-2017, 09:00 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
In regards to WoW making Arcane less dangerous, couldn't you call Malygos being a boss the first big sign of this? I mean, he flies in saying that magic needs more regulation and instead of being aided he's instead "going too far" and has to be killed.
He went to far because he wanted to kill all mages and redirect all leylines to the Nexus. Knowing what we do about the World Soul, this would probably kill or damage Azeroth.
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  #214  
Old 11-26-2017, 03:20 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
He went to far because he wanted to kill all mages and redirect all leylines to the Nexus. Knowing what we do about the World Soul, this would probably kill or damage Azeroth.
And because the only mages he seemed to be killing were the ones who actually enforce rules and regulations about using magic.

The Kirin Tor was the only group even trying to do the job he blew off for 10,000 years while crazy, and he repaid them for at least trying to cover his ass by attempting wipe them out and offering more power to any of their number that was willing to betray the rest.

Last edited by ARM3481; 11-26-2017 at 03:25 AM..
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  #215  
Old 11-26-2017, 09:34 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
And because the only mages he seemed to be killing were the ones who actually enforce rules and regulations about using magic.

The Kirin Tor was the only group even trying to do the job he blew off for 10,000 years while crazy, and he repaid them for at least trying to cover his ass by attempting wipe them out and offering more power to any of their number that was willing to betray the rest.
I hate that at first they were very adamant he wasn't corrupted, but then later said he was.
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  #216  
Old 11-26-2017, 04:06 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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I hate that at first they were very adamant he wasn't corrupted, but then later said he was.
Apparently he "stopped being crazy" in the context of just being paranoid and reckless instead of functionally incoherent. Presumably his corruption later was less a matter of outright crazy voices like Deathwing, and more like his worst impulses being magnified.

Which, given the way the nether dragons he absorbed were behaving at the time, isn't entirely surprising in hindsight. By absorbing them, he may have taken on their paranoia and violent distrust of mortals in the process.
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  #217  
Old 11-26-2017, 06:24 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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What Malygos was doing was causing a lot of geological trouble. Borean Tundra has some quests about it.
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I hate that at first they were very adamant he wasn't corrupted, but then later said he was.
When did they say he was? I thought the Nexus War was because he regained his sanity.

Last edited by Asterisk; 11-26-2017 at 06:26 PM..
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  #218  
Old 11-26-2017, 06:40 PM
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What Malygos was doing was causing a lot of geological trouble. Borean Tundra has some quests about it.

When did they say he was? I thought the Nexus War was because he regained his sanity.
He "regained" his sanity by sucking on Nether Drake juices. Now that the twisting nether is unambiguously chock-full of fel magic I think that means he was sucking on a demonic teat and thus became fel-corrupted.
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  #219  
Old 11-27-2017, 08:34 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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He "regained" his sanity by sucking on Nether Drake juices. Now that the twisting nether is unambiguously chock-full of fel magic I think that means he was sucking on a demonic teat and thus became fel-corrupted.
Nah? Nether Dragon eggs were made when the portals went boom due to Nerzhul. They might not be fel infested since Nerzhul was a shaman.
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  #220  
Old 11-27-2017, 11:15 AM
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Nah? Nether Dragon eggs were made when the portals went boom due to Nerzhul. They might not be fel infested since Nerzhul was a shaman.
There wasn't anything shamanic about Ner'zhul's portal magic; he was using arcane and fel implements in a ritual drawn from the arcane and fel knowledge in Medivh's book of spells. He arguably wasn't even a shaman any more, since the orcs of Draenor were still severed from the elements by Gul'dan's use of the Cipher of Damnation.

When he compelled the elements to obey him in BtDP, it was portrayed as something forced and unnatural, so even then he was probably using either arcane power straight from the Book of Medivh or tapping into some form of Void- or Decay-based Dark Shamanism to enslave the spirits.
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  #221  
Old 11-28-2017, 08:26 AM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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I think that Night Elves suffer from one major, fundamental problem- they were shoehorned into this two-faction system, when their themes fit neither of the two. There's a reason why they worked so well in Warcraft 3- they were unique and managed to be their own thing. Most Night Elf fans are fans of the race, more than they are fans of the Alliance. The Elves had their own unique flavour, and that flavour has been diluted. So whilst an Alliance fan would cheer for getting Lordaeron, Gilneas, Kul Tiras back, a Night Elf fan would not cheer for that, as they do not give a damn about some old Alliance kingdoms being given back for in exchange for losing the ancestral homeland of the Elves. So there is a difference in what a WC3 Alliance fan would desire and what a Night Elf fan would desire- as much as I like the Nelves, I like the Alliance that I played as in Warcraft 3 much more. I want those kingdoms to be a part of the Alliance far more than I want the Night Elves to keep their homelands, although I would like to see both happen. And I think that a lot of Night Elf fans would feel the same way for their own favourite race.

And unfortunately, Blizzard has treated this game as a story between two factions-Alliance and Horde, instead of treating it as a story between individual races. And whilst that might work for fans of the races of the Eastern Kingdoms Alliance and Kalimdor Horde, whose races have always been so heavily integrated into their respective factions that they are practically indistinguishable from them, it does not work very well for races that had their own identity once and different reasons to appeal to people.

Of course, none of this would have been an issue if Blizzard had succeeded in integrating the Night Elves into the Alliance whilst keeping their identity, but they did not, sadly. I do not think that it was a good idea to begin with. I get that they were trying to be different from other media in the fantasy genre, putting the High Elves into the non-human faction while putting the mysterious ones into the human one. But it has still not worked out, despite the decision having been made over 13 years ago.


Instead, it would have been much better to go ahead with the 4-factions that they had in WC3, in my opinion. But it is too late to revert to that now. However, in a future Warcraft IV, I would like to see that happen.

Last edited by CoDimus the Staunch; 11-28-2017 at 08:33 AM..
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  #222  
Old 11-29-2017, 07:26 PM
Aquamonkey Aquamonkey is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
There wasn't anything shamanic about Ner'zhul's portal magic; he was using arcane and fel implements in a ritual drawn from the arcane and fel knowledge in Medivh's book of spells. He arguably wasn't even a shaman any more, since the orcs of Draenor were still severed from the elements by Gul'dan's use of the Cipher of Damnation.

When he compelled the elements to obey him in BtDP, it was portrayed as something forced and unnatural, so even then he was probably using either arcane power straight from the Book of Medivh or tapping into some form of Void- or Decay-based Dark Shamanism to enslave the spirits.
Ner'zhul was tapping into the natural power of Draenor to make all those portals. The arcane magic came from the ley lines. It's even noted that Ner'zhul's shaman training made him more familiar with it than Khadgar.
Ner’zhul was a shaman, not a mage. His magics came from the earth and the sky and the water, from the world itself. And that was what this place was, a focal point for the world’s power. For Ner’zhul it would have been like tapping full force into something he had already broached repeatedly, but on a lesser scale—he would know how to handle it. For Khadgar, however, it was a completely new experience. And a dangerous one.
--Beyond the Dark Portal
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  #223  
Old 11-29-2017, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
Ner'zhul was tapping into the natural power of Draenor to make all those portals. The arcane magic came from the ley lines. It's even noted that Ner'zhul's shaman training made him more familiar with it than Khadgar.
Ner’zhul was a shaman, not a mage. His magics came from the earth and the sky and the water, from the world itself. And that was what this place was, a focal point for the world’s power. For Ner’zhul it would have been like tapping full force into something he had already broached repeatedly, but on a lesser scale—he would know how to handle it. For Khadgar, however, it was a completely new experience. And a dangerous one.
--Beyond the Dark Portal
There was nothing shamanic about it; just because the elements are involved doesn't make it shamanism. Otherwise every mage would be a shaman just because they can summon ice and fire.

Ner'zhul basically used the elements as the "fuel" to feed the portal spell, which was devised by Medivh via his knowledge as a mage (and through his possession, arguably a warlock.)

The ritual, the tools and the portals themselves were arcane and/or fel in nature. The elements were the fuel being used to power it all and, theoretically, stably anchor it between both points if he'd had someone on the "other side" of each portal doing the same spell like Gul'dan had with Medivh on Azeroth. None of it involved beseeching the spirits to gain their aid the way a shaman does which makes it shamanism. Medivh's spellbook and the other implements allowed Ner'zhul to grab hold of that power by force (which was necessary, given the orcs' spiritual connection to the elements having been severed) and use it to fuel the ritual, because manipulating other magical forces and burning them like fuel is what Arcane and Fel do, respectively.
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  #224  
Old 12-01-2017, 04:21 PM
Azshande Azshande is offline

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I doubt any of the "deeply offended Night Elf fans from the community" would upvote that. I doubt Kyalin and Icefrost would upvote those submissions. And they wouldn't upvote it because they don't buy the idea.
Hey, i did.

Where's your god now?


:p

Last edited by Azshande; 12-01-2017 at 04:32 PM..
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  #225  
Old 12-02-2017, 05:25 AM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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Simply put - The faction war shenanigans should have died with Mists of Pandaria. The faction system should have been done away with; I haven't dug into much of the datamined dialogue recently, but seeing some of it. My doubts, worries and loss of hope for this expansion is coming back.
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