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  #51  
Old 01-04-2015, 09:52 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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You two aren't going to have hate sex again right?
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  #52  
Old 01-04-2015, 09:53 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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You two aren't going to have hate sex again right?
Hey if that's what it'd take to get him to calm down I'd consider it.
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  #53  
Old 01-04-2015, 09:57 PM
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I ain't even mad, though. I just don't care to put up with this wooby "you hurt my feelings" shit. I wasn't even being a dick to you. You sperged out because I made one assumption about armies or something and started ranting about me shoving words in your mouth. I think you read way too much into the "tone" of my text. I was being civil with you earlier. It's not my problem if you automatically read everything I say in some sort of aggressive voice.
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  #54  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:01 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
I ain't even mad, though. I just don't care to put up with this wooby "you hurt my feelings" shit. I wasn't even being a dick to you. You sperged out because I made one assumption about armies or something and started ranting about me shoving words in your mouth. I think you read way too much into the "tone" of my text. I was being civil with you earlier. It's not my problem if you automatically read everything I say in some sort of aggressive voice.
I think it's a bit ironic to have you claim I shouldn't read everything you post in an aggressive voice when you seem to read everything I post in an ultra-whiny one.

I "sperged" I "pussed out" I 'self diagnose PTSD'

I don't 'read' you in a aggressive voice.
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  #55  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:03 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I think it's a bit ironic to have you claim I shouldn't read everything you post in an aggressive voice when you seem to read everything I post in an ultra-whiny one.

I "sperged" I "pussed out" I 'self diagnose PTSD'

I don't 'read' you in a aggressive voice.
I don't read everything you say in a whiny tone, though. Only when you start saying whiny, wooby shit.

Like when you immediately got butthurt over one assumption in an otherwise civil post. I don't recall insulting you in those posts. I'm pretty direct when I'm insulting someone, so it's not like there's a hidden venom behind my posts. You'll know when I'm insulting you.
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  #56  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:05 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Hey if that's what it'd take to get him to calm down I'd consider it.
You shouldn't put out for someone just because they are mad at you.
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  #57  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
You shouldn't put out for someone just because they are mad at you.
Especially with this guy. He looks terrifying.
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  #58  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:08 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
I don't read everything you say in a whiny tone, though. Only when you start saying whiny, wooby shit.

Like when you immediately got butthurt over one assumption in an otherwise civil post. I don't recall insulting you in those posts. I'm pretty direct when I'm insulting someone, so it's not like there's a hidden venom behind my posts. You'll know when I'm insulting you.
Not wanting to discuss with you further is "butthurt"?

I never said you insulted me prior to the 'pussing out' line, I just said I didn't enjoy talking with you, and then that prompted -you- to insult me. Why did that bother you so much?

You say you're not emotional but your reaction says otherwise. All your posts after that 'pussing out' one are about attacking me because you think I'm too emotional, I think you might be projecting a bit.

But if you really weren't being hostile, and I understand it's not in your nature to clarify before escalating, then fine, my mistake, shall we return to civil lore discussion and move on?

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You shouldn't put out for someone just because they are mad at you.
It was a poor joke I'll admit.
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  #59  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:18 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Not wanting to discuss with you further is "butthurt"?

I never said you insulted me prior to the 'pussing out' line, I just said I didn't enjoy talking with you, and then that prompted -you- to insult me. Why did that bother you so much?

You say you're not emotional but your reaction says otherwise. All your posts after that 'pussing out' one are about attacking me because you think I'm too emotional, I think you might be projecting a bit.

But if you really weren't being hostile, and I understand it's not in your nature to clarify before escalating, then fine, my mistake, shall we return to civil lore discussion and move on?
Okay, we're literally going in circles here and now I'm actually starting to get mad.

1. Yes, you immediately got butthurt because you claimed I was shoving words down your throat. (See: Post #36)

2. It did not bother me. I explained this earlier. (See: Post #45)

3. I did not claim to be unemotional. What I did claim was that I was not being aggressive when we were discussing the game earlier. (See: Post #53)

4. Do what you want. I will continue posting as I please whether you want to discuss things with me or not.
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  #60  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
It has the added benefit of being the only remaining chunk of land on the entire continent which A: has trees and B: hasn't had the Night Elves trigger a bitch fit over someone looking at it funny.
Un'goro works for me, as long as the Titan place isn't tampered with.


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Originally Posted by Trickster View Post
I don't see with the Horde should get Night Elves lands (Feralas) in exchange for Alliance getting back Alliance lands. The Horde should get back a zone that pretty much always should have been theirs and that is Thousand Needles.
I figured the Alliance would get the south western and Highborne ruins area, while the Tauren keep their place and can expand that a bit where it is and the camp in the northern area. Under Tauren command. Not orc command. I'd make it a point the orcs are forbidden by law from being in a leadership position while in Feralas, Give those Horde areas in Feralas to the tauren.

1K Needles could be a good port area for the Horde, as could Duskwallow (if Alliance doesn't return there.) There's oil in 1K Needles and it can be a southern port area for the Tauren, and the pirate port area.

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A more pertinent goal for the Horde should be to increase their presence on parts of Kalimdor which aren't held by the Alliance and never have been. This is partly why I'm so interested in the idea of having the Horde get a stronger grip on the Eastern coast of Kalimdor and into Un'Goro.

Get a deal going with the Dunemaul, Steamwheedle and Farraki to work with/for the Horde presence in Un'Goro and bring both zones to fly Horde colours. Hell, set up a sort of preferential trade deal between the Horde and Steamwheedle, and get them closer together and between Ratchet, Booty Bay, Everlook and Azshara Harbor, you've made it that no one does inter-continental business without money making its way into Horde hands.
If the Alliance keeps the Theramore ruins or sets up a place nearby and/or expands Northwatch Keep into a proper port, those could be the Alliance entry into the east Kalimdor area. The Alliance losing all access to their own ports in the eastern Kalimdor doesn't help the Alliance at all, not to mention it would be considered a military lose to not have any ports or towns on the eastern seaboard somewhere.

The Steamwheedle barons seem to be more of associates rather than a company since each town (Ratchet, Everlook, Gadgetzan, Booty Bay, Fuselight) doesn't seem to be run by any one company, but by their individual barons/town mayor (or whatever). I can see Ratchet being closer to the Horde because of the blockade, but not really Gadgetzan or Booty Bay, or Everlook for that matter.

To bring the Hinterlands into it, all I see there is the western third is Alliance, the eastern third is Horde and the middle north region is Green Dragon area/Cenarion Circle. The Horde trolls there (Reventusk?) are pretty chill for trolls. Not like the Guberashi or Amani.

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You're like Kyn in that you're super abrasive and unpleasant to discuss with.
I wouldn't call myself super abrasive, more like very blunt at times. Believe me, if I was really abrasive, I could be. I just tend to show a lack of tact when I get angry or frustrated sometimes. I do try to tone it down when I am notified of it though. For what it's worth Mutterscrawl, I think you're one or the more reasonable Horde posters, Kellick being another (I can't remember any others atm). I might not agree with you all the time, but you both do have some solid ideas and you make me think about my position when I discuss things on the forum, which is good.
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  #61  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:26 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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You're talking about a few pieces of land hugging the shore of this great salty lake. These few pieces of dirt are not comparable to entire regions loaded in natural resources. Allowing the Alliance to control the entirety of Gilneas, Hillsbrad, Arathi, and the Hinterlands, in exchange for a few bluffs is not smart. Seeing how the PC has already done much of the work in 1k, why would the Horde even need to send a massive army? It's work that could be accomplished by a few grunts and a ship.

While the Horde is busy with that, the Alliance is dismantling the Horde's hold on the Eastern Kingdoms, claiming lands rich in lumber, ore, and game, and further cementing their position as "Azeroth's sole superpower." For the Horde, that's bad news. Which is precisely why the Horde would be brain-dead to let the Alliance do such a thing while they focus on some salt cliffs in Kalimdor's buttcrack.
Let's proceed then.


Let me clarify that what I am proposing is not a territorial 'exchange' with signed treaties and handshakes, what I'm proposing is that each of the factions make some regional landgrabs with varying methods.

You say the PC has already done a lot of the work in 1K needles and that was true at the time of Cataclysm, things may have changed since then and that needs to be taken into account.

As I mentioned earlier a massive army might not be necessary, we're not just talking about 1k Needles, we're also talking about Dustwallow and another zone.

You seem convinced that 1K needles is not rich in resources. Yet it has ore, is full of fish (game), and while it doesn't have lumber the oil makes up for that. There's also the underwater Titan/silithid to be taken into account.
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  #62  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:39 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Let's proceed then.


Let me clarify that what I am proposing is not a territorial 'exchange' with signed treaties and handshakes, what I'm proposing is that each of the factions make some regional landgrabs with varying methods.

You say the PC has already done a lot of the work in 1K needles and that was true at the time of Cataclysm, things may have changed since then and that needs to be taken into account.

As I mentioned earlier a massive army might not be necessary, we're not just talking about 1k Needles, we're also talking about Dustwallow and another zone.

You seem convinced that 1K needles is not rich in resources. Yet it has ore, is full of fish (game), and while it doesn't have lumber the oil makes up for that. There's also the underwater Titan/silithid to be taken into account.
I do not think 1k lacks resources, only that the zone is a meager prize when compared to its neighbor of Feralas. Feralas is rich in lumber, it may have oil, is full of game, and is loaded with old elven riches, ruins, and all sorts of useful devices and all these things available with much more convenient methods of gathering. (Literally: gathering vs sailing and diving) Why focus on 1k when there's a richer bounty to be had next door?

Securing 1k is something that should be achieved, certainly. But the Horde should be doing as much as it can to hinder Alliance efforts and interests. Now more than ever, due to their position post-SoO. With Ashenvale lost to them, the Horde find themselves looking at Feralas, Stonetalon, and Desolace. The night elves abandoned these regions during the Long Vigil just as they had abandoned the Barrens, Azshara, and Mulgore. What right do they have to these lands? Their ruins don't mean anything in Feralas. Those are Highborne ruins and the Highborne that joined the Alliance abandoned their homes in Feralas for Darnassus.
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  #63  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:40 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Un'goro works for me, as long as the Titan place isn't tampered with.
Sadly I think it might have to be, the watcher there, Nablya, implies that Un'goro and similar areas are places the Titans feel free to intervene in ways they don't elsewhere. If she doesn't attack the Horde just for settling (the explorer camp was destroyed once by golems for vague reasons), titan experiments may draw them to attack her.

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I figured the Alliance would get the south western and Highborne ruins area, while the Tauren keep their place and can expand that a bit where it is and the camp in the northern area. Under Tauren command. Not orc command. I'd make it a point the orcs are forbidden by law from being in a leadership position while in Feralas, Give those Horde areas in Feralas to the tauren.
Something I feel I need to reinforce is that this is not a treaty situation.

I am very against any faction having to obey an edict issued by the other.

Like Hillsbrad/Alterac and the Plaguelands I see Feralas (and Desolace) as a site for future heavy conflict, but not at this stage of the hypothetical.

Quote:
If the Alliance keeps the Theramore ruins or sets up a place nearby and/or expands Northwatch Keep into a proper port, those could be the Alliance entry into the east Kalimdor area. The Alliance losing all access to their own ports in the eastern Kalimdor doesn't help the Alliance at all, not to mention it would be considered a military lose to not have any ports or towns on the eastern seaboard somewhere.

The Steamwheedle barons seem to be more of associates rather than a company since each town (Ratchet, Everlook, Gadgetzan, Booty Bay, Fuselight) doesn't seem to be run by any one company, but by their individual barons/town mayor (or whatever). I can see Ratchet being closer to the Horde because of the blockade, but not really Gadgetzan or Booty Bay, or Everlook for that matter.
The alliance's need for something on the coast is something I wrestle with, What do you think about something hewn into the cliffs of winterspring with lifts?

Quote:
To bring the Hinterlands into it, all I see there is the western third is Alliance, the eastern third is Horde and the middle north region is Green Dragon area/Cenarion Circle. The Horde trolls there (Reventusk?) are pretty chill for trolls. Not like the Guberashi or Amani.



I wouldn't call myself super abrasive, more like very blunt at times. Believe me, if I was really abrasive, I could be. I just tend to show a lack of tact when I get angry or frustrated sometimes. I do try to tone it down when I am notified of it though. For what it's worth Mutterscrawl, I think you're one or the more reasonable Horde posters, Kellick being another (I can't remember any others atm). I might not agree with you all the time, but you both do have some solid ideas and you make me think about my position when I discuss things on the forum, which is good.
Dividing the Hinterlands up could work but my primary concern is that the Horde area is on the east and thus isolated except for -maybe- sea contact with Quel'thalas. I am also -really- resistant to bringing the Cenarion Circle in, I'm not a fan of neutrals.


Thank you Kyn.
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  #64  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:44 PM
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I'm going to have to question the whole taking of the Hinterlands bit.

The Hinterlands only have two access points.
the foothills and the plaguelands.
Both of these regions are pretty hard pressed by the Horde, there's no way they're going to be able to take The Hinterlands from forces of the Trolls and the Forsaken.

---
If anything, I think the Hinterlands would be taken by the Horde and maybe either 1K Needles or Stone talon.

Last I checked, Stone talon on the Alliance side was hit by tentacles and bombs, I think they've already been pushed out pretty much.

So yeah...
Gilneas and Arathi for Hinterlands and I guess Stonetalon maybe.
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  #65  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:46 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
I do not think 1k lacks resources, only that the zone is a meager prize when compared to its neighbor of Feralas. Feralas is rich in lumber, it may have oil, is full of game, and is loaded with old elven riches, ruins, and all sorts of useful devices and all these things available with much more convenient methods of gathering. (Literally: gathering vs sailing and diving) Why focus on 1k when there's a richer bounty to be had next door?

Securing 1k is something that should be achieved, certainly. But the Horde should be doing as much as it can to hinder Alliance efforts and interests. Now more than ever, due to their position post-SoO. With Ashenvale lost to them, the Horde find themselves looking at Feralas, Stonetalon, and Desolace. The night elves abandoned these regions during the Long Vigil just as they had abandoned the Barrens, Azshara, and Mulgore. What right do they have to these lands? Their ruins don't mean anything in Feralas. Those are Highborne ruins and the Highborne that joined the Alliance abandoned their homes in Feralas for Darnassus.
Because it's easy to secure and its resources can eventually be turned to expanding further. Feralas is one of the most powerful military bases for the nelfs due to the presence of Feathermoon Stronghold and as I've mentioned before the Tauren aren't currently in a position to listen to a drive to push the nelves out because the orcs have been fucking everyone over recently.

I'd also contest that fishing ships are more efficient than Feralas land that is currently untamed forest, not fields and such.


I'm of the opposite mind regarding what the Horde should be doing, after SoO it needs to take some time to build itself back up, if it launches straight back into aggression before it's recovered it's going to be stomped. Especially if the nelf highborne in the zone have been trying to reclaim Dire Maul, and they have. Sadly we even have to quest with one on the Horde.


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for hitting Feralas eventually but it's no what I have in mind right now.

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Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
I'm going to have to question the whole taking of the Hinterlands bit.

The Hinterlands only have two access points.
the foothills and the plaguelands.
Both of these regions are pretty hard pressed by the Horde, there's no way they're going to be able to take The Hinterlands from forces of the Trolls and the Forsaken.

---
If anything, I think the Hinterlands would be taken by the Horde and maybe either 1K Needles or Stone talon.

Last I checked, Stone talon on the Alliance side was hit by tentacles and bombs, I think they've already been pushed out pretty much.

So yeah...
Gilneas and Arathi for Hinterlands and I guess Stonetalon maybe.
It -had- only two access points prior to Cataclysm.

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow....Map-Arathi.jpg

Now it's got a tunnel right through the middle of Arathi, I imagine once Arathi is taken the dwarves would push further north, destroying Hammerfall and either pushing through the mountains into the Hinterlands that way (We do need to take gamescale into account), or using that tunnel.

Stonetalon was hit pretty hard but we need to take into account that it's been a few years and with Krom'gar's army dissolved and then Garrosh's defeat they likely had time to recover. I still hold the Alliance'd retain control over the upper half of the zone.
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  #66  
Old 01-04-2015, 10:54 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Because it's easy to secure and its resources can eventually be turned to expanding further. Feralas is one of the most powerful military bases for the nelfs due to the presence of Feathermoon Stronghold and as I've mentioned before the Tauren aren't currently in a position to listen to a drive to push the nelves out because the orcs have been fucking everyone over recently.

I'd also contest that fishing ships are more efficient than Feralas land that is currently untamed forest, not fields and such.


I'm of the opposite mind regarding what the Horde should be doing, after SoO it needs to take some time to build itself back up, if it launches straight back into aggression before it's recovered it's going to be stomped. Especially if the nelf highborne in the zone have been trying to reclaim Dire Maul, and they have. Sadly we even have to quest with one on the Horde.


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for hitting Feralas eventually but it's no what I have in mind right now.
Well, I don't think the Horde should be launching all-out war or anything. I was thinking something more subtle. Staking claims, sending in colonists and settlers to tame the land, etc. The elves have Feathermoon Stronghold, this is true. But the Horde has the ogre place directly in its path. I don't think the ogre hold would survive a siege, but I think it would make the elves hesitant to launch an attack. Especially since Feathermoon Stronghold isn't exactly located on the most advantageous of locations. It's located down hill and its soldiers would have to march up a cliff just to reach the main road. A dedicated foe could inflict massive casualties upon an advancing army from that position.

Also, as far as we know, Vol'jin is leader of the orcs. The concerns and needs of the Orcish people are now his problems to deal with. He's not an orc. He's not a valiant war hero. He sits in the center of Orgrimmar, ruling over the Orcish locals. If he lets them starve, he's going to find himself on the receiving end of a rebellion. Or at the least, being challenged to mak'gora every so often.

I do not think the problems the orcs were facing have suddenly disappeared. Vol'jin will find himself inheriting the messes of Thrall and Garrosh. Securing 1k immediately is the wiser course of action now, I see. Acquiring the resources, accumulating wealth, etc.
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Old 01-04-2015, 11:04 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
It -had- only two access points prior to Cataclysm.

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow....Map-Arathi.jpg

Now it's got a tunnel right through the middle of Arathi, I imagine once Arathi is taken the dwarves would push further north, destroying Hammerfall and either pushing through the mountains into the Hinterlands that way (We do need to take gamescale into account), or using that tunnel.

Stonetalon was hit pretty hard but we need to take into account that it's been a few years and with Krom'gar's army dissolved and then Garrosh's defeat they likely had time to recover. I still hold the Alliance'd retain control over the upper half of the zone.
Will the tunnel still remain though?
Tunnels can be blown up.
It depends on the counter attack.
A counter attack wherein the wall (between Arathi and the Foothills) is fortified while the remaining forces outside of the wall (The Hinterlands) are attacked and the tunnels destroyed could do the trick.

Technically I think the Elves have basically captured Ashenvale (that's where reinforcements came from during the SoO IIRC) so I'd probably expect Southern barrens to be captured then as opposed to Stonetalon.
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Old 01-04-2015, 11:18 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Well, I don't think the Horde should be launching all-out war or anything. I was thinking something more subtle. Staking claims, sending in colonists and settlers to tame the land, etc. The elves have Feathermoon Stronghold, this is true. But the Horde has the ogre place directly in its path. I don't think the ogre hold would survive a siege, but I think it would make the elves hesitant to launch an attack. Especially since Feathermoon Stronghold isn't exactly located on the most advantageous of locations. It's located down hill and its soldiers would have to march up a cliff just to reach the main road. A dedicated foe could inflict massive casualties upon an advancing army from that position.

Also, as far as we know, Vol'jin is leader of the orcs. The concerns and needs of the Orcish people are now his problems to deal with. He's not an orc. He's not a valiant war hero. He sits in the center of Orgrimmar, ruling over the Orcish locals. If he lets them starve, he's going to find himself on the receiving end of a rebellion. Or at the least, being challenged to mak'gora every so often.

I do not think the problems the orcs were facing have suddenly disappeared. Vol'jin will find himself inheriting the messes of Thrall and Garrosh. Securing 1k immediately is the wiser course of action now, I see. Acquiring the resources, accumulating wealth, etc.
My concern is, if we have the Horde and Alliance behave as rational actors (IE: better written than Blizz writes them), then the nelfs would likely have started retaking the Feathermoon island by now, and although I agree their position at the bottom of a cliff sucks, they're experts in forest warfare, have been training worgen, and have more natural allies in the region.

Most of what the Horde would need to take advantage of the cliff isn't in the zone. The Ogres don't have siege weapons, they'd be limited to what they can throw or what they can cast and even as close as they are they'd be spotted getting ready, among other things (ambushes or who knows what).


I agree Vol'jin needs to address the Orcs situation but frankly if he's half as smart as he's supposed to be he's not going to start off by antagonizing the Alliance he's going to grab every speck of territory and squash every other hostile force in the Horde's reach before he does it. (The way Garrosh ought to have).


Once the Horde's good and secure in its borders (or at least as reasonably close to it as possible), then we can write in some viable reasons for renewed conflict.


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Will the tunnel still remain though?
Tunnels can be blown up.
It depends on the counter attack.
A counter attack wherein the wall (between Arathi and the Foothills) is fortified while the remaining forces outside of the wall (The Hinterlands) are attacked and the tunnels destroyed could do the trick.

Technically I think the Elves have basically captured Ashenvale (that's where reinforcements came from during the SoO IIRC) so I'd probably expect Southern barrens to be captured then as opposed to Stonetalon.
While it's true tunnels can be blown up this is dwarf made, I doubt it'd be easy. It also doesn't let out especially close to any horde settlements.

Also lorewise I imagine Thoradin's wall faces out from Arathi, I think the step being on the Hillsbrad side is a game error, I don't think Sylvanas could fortify that side of the wall easily, I figure the Alliance would be the one taking it and the Forsaken would rebuild Durnholde to hold that side of the Hillsbrad river.
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Old 01-04-2015, 11:40 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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[QUOTE=Mutterscrawl;1245913]Sadly I think it might have to be, the watcher there, Nablya, implies that Un'goro and similar areas are places the Titans feel free to intervene in ways they don't elsewhere. If she doesn't attack the Horde just for settling (the explorer camp was destroyed once by golems for vague reasons), titan experiments may draw them to attack her.[/qwuote]

A fair point there, but the Horde NPCs there shouldn't bitch when their fingers are burned/slapped when some try to poke their figners into the Titan stuff.

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Something I feel I need to reinforce is that this is not a treaty situation.

I am very against any faction having to obey an edict issued by the other.

Like Hillsbrad/Alterac and the Plaguelands I see Feralas (and Desolace) as a site for future heavy conflict, but not at this stage of the hypothetical.
I was more aiming to showing that you can have people other than orcs in command all the time in all bases. That's one thing that annoyed me was the prevalence of orcs being the ones in command almost everywhere. Feralas is much more a tauren area than orc, so I wouldn't mind it being a point that the orcs don't take command there. Maybe not be the law, but something the Horde rulers agree upon. in that area, and other tauren areas, the taurens are the ones calling the shots.



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The alliance's need for something on the coast is something I wrestle with, What do you think about something hewn into the cliffs of winterspring with lifts?
Unless Northwatch is abandoned, it still exists, so it could be expanded.

Hmm.. I'm not sure about an elevator hewn into the cliffside of Winterspring.g Realistically, something like that would take decades if not centuries to just carve out of the mountainside. That's a hell of a long way up and making an elevator (and finding a way to power it, let alone maintain it) would be an immense expense. It would be hard for us on Earth to make such a thing.

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Dividing the Hinterlands up could work but my primary concern is that the Horde area is on the east and thus isolated except for -maybe- sea contact with Quel'thalas. I am also -really- resistant to bringing the Cenarion Circle in, I'm not a fan of neutrals.


Thank you Kyn.
I put the middle north area as Green Dragon/Flight, Cenarion Circle area because that's where one of the entrances of the Emerald Dream is at. Having something like that under the control of a neutral is better than either faction, especially not the Horde (recent in game events point to the Horde not being responsible enough to handle such a thing very well).


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Well, I don't think the Horde should be launching all-out war or anything. I was thinking something more subtle. Staking claims, sending in colonists and settlers to tame the land, etc. The elves have Feathermoon Stronghold, this is true. But the Horde has the ogre place directly in its path. I don't think the ogre hold would survive a siege, but I think it would make the elves hesitant to launch an attack. Especially since Feathermoon Stronghold isn't exactly located on the most advantageous of locations. It's located down hill and its soldiers would have to march up a cliff just to reach the main road. A dedicated foe could inflict massive casualties upon an advancing army from that position.

Also, as far as we know, Vol'jin is leader of the orcs. The concerns and needs of the Orcish people are now his problems to deal with. He's not an orc. He's not a valiant war hero. He sits in the center of Orgrimmar, ruling over the Orcish locals. If he lets them starve, he's going to find himself on the receiving end of a rebellion. Or at the least, being challenged to mak'gora every so often.

I do not think the problems the orcs were facing have suddenly disappeared. Vol'jin will find himself inheriting the messes of Thrall and Garrosh. Securing 1k immediately is the wiser course of action now, I see. Acquiring the resources, accumulating wealth, etc.
Besides Feathermoon Stronhold and Feathermoon Island, Feralas also has the Highborne Archmage who lived in Eldre’Thalas (Dire Maul) who is actively working with the Night elves to reclaim that city. The Kaldorei also have a small base set up just north of the sillithid hive too, so the Horde/orcs trying to stake out the east and central portion of Feralas would run smack into active Kaldorei claims and rebuilding. Militarily the Kaldorei are in a very strong position in that land.

The Horde might be able to do something with the orgres in the southern central area, but that's kind of iffy. I think they'd have better chances in Desolace.

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Will the tunnel still remain though?
Tunnels can be blown up.
It depends on the counter attack.
A counter attack wherein the wall (between Arathi and the Foothills) is fortified while the remaining forces outside of the wall (The Hinterlands) are attacked and the tunnels destroyed could do the trick.
The tunnel would be rebuilt, it's the only way into the Hinterlands from the south that doesn't cross forsaken territory, and any attack on it would be seen as an act of war in all likelihood. And it would only draw unwanted attention to Sylvanas and the forsaken.
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Old 01-04-2015, 11:52 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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A fair point there, but the Horde NPCs there shouldn't bitch when their fingers are burned/slapped when some try to poke their figners into the Titan stuff.
No but the titans aren't unbeatable or infallible.



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I was more aiming to showing that you can have people other than orcs in command all the time in all bases. That's one thing that annoyed me was the prevalence of orcs being the ones in command almost everywhere. Feralas is much more a tauren area than orc, so I wouldn't mind it being a point that the orcs don't take command there. Maybe not be the law, but something the Horde rulers agree upon. in that area, and other tauren areas, the taurens are the ones calling the shots.
Well it's true that it's a tauren town there from Vanilla but the orcs have always been helping them move in. I can agree the tauren wouldn't want the area clear-cut by goblins but they wouldn't likely try and cut the other races out entirely from leadership in the region. I'm thinking a Mok'nathal will lead the region, primarily to reign in the other local ogres and gnolls.



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Unless Northwatch is abandoned, it still exists, so it could be expanded.

Hmm.. I'm not sure about an elevator hewn into the cliffside of Winterspring.g Realistically, something like that would take decades if not centuries to just carve out of the mountainside. That's a hell of a long way up and making an elevator (and finding a way to power it, let alone maintain it) would be an immense expense. It would be hard for us on Earth to make such a thing.

Possible, but even then it sits between two Horde capitals really.

And Bilgewater harbor and Warsong Hold should've taken years too, it's a fantasy game we can fudge certain things.



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I put the middle north area as Green Dragon/Flight, Cenarion Circle area because that's where one of the entrances of the Emerald Dream is at. Having something like that under the control of a neutral is better than either faction, especially not the Horde (recent in game events point to the Horde not being responsible enough to handle such a thing very well).
The north area? Sure, though I'd prefer the Night Elves or worgen hold it rather than the Cenarions.





Quote:
Besides Feathermoon Stronhold and Feathermoon Island, Feralas also has the Highborne Archmage who lived in Eldre’Thalas (Dire Maul) who is actively working with the Night elves to reclaim that city. The Kaldorei also have a small base set up just north of the sillithid hive too, so the Horde/orcs trying to stake out the east and central portion of Feralas would run smack into active Kaldorei claims and rebuilding. Militarily the Kaldorei are in a very strong position in that land.

The Horde might be able to do something with the orgres in the southern central area, but that's kind of iffy. I think they'd have better chances in Desolace.



The tunnel would be rebuilt, it's the only way into the Hinterlands from the south that doesn't cross forsaken territory, and any attack on it would be seen as an act of war in all likelihood. And it would only draw unwanted attention to Sylvanas and the forsaken.
This is why I see Feralas and Desolace being addressed after a period of recovery, right now the Horde can't contest them. The centaur now calling themselves the sons of cenarius would make them too likely to side with the nelves against the tauren and orcs.


Assuming we're not already at war, but yes, Hinterlands Horde forces are too small and spread out to maintain themselves.
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:20 AM
Dawnfeld Dawnfeld is offline

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While this is more Eastern Kingdoms, I wouldn't mind if the Gurubashi trolls defected from the Zandalari and the Horde set up shop in Zul'Gurub.
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Old 01-05-2015, 07:44 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Un'goro works for me, as long as the Titan place isn't tampered with.

If the Alliance keeps the Theramore ruins or sets up a place nearby and/or expands Northwatch Keep into a proper port, those could be the Alliance entry into the east Kalimdor area. The Alliance losing all access to their own ports in the eastern Kalimdor doesn't help the Alliance at all, not to mention it would be considered a military lose to not have any ports or towns on the eastern seaboard somewhere.

The Steamwheedle barons seem to be more of associates rather than a company since each town (Ratchet, Everlook, Gadgetzan, Booty Bay, Fuselight) doesn't seem to be run by any one company, but by their individual barons/town mayor (or whatever). I can see Ratchet being closer to the Horde because of the blockade, but not really Gadgetzan or Booty Bay, or Everlook for that matter.
While the Dwarves tend to believe they're the only one's allowed to do any research into anything Titanic, and tend to act as though they've the right to kill any non-Dwarves who dare look upon a Titanic facility, that doesn't actually make it so. The presence of Titanic experiments presents a potential security threat, so the Horde would have every reason to study it and keep it in check.

As for the Alliance being out of ports into Eastern Kalimdor, I believe the purpose of this thread was to discuss how to improve the Horde's situation in Kalimdor, so the Alliance's status in Dustwallow is of little concern. However, if the Alliance were to insist in rebuilding in or around the ruins of Theramore, the Horde would probably want to tighten its control of the roads through the Barrens, so as to deter Theramore trying to pull the same stunt again.
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Old 01-05-2015, 08:22 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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While this is more Eastern Kingdoms, I wouldn't mind if the Gurubashi trolls defected from the Zandalari and the Horde set up shop in Zul'Gurub.
Eh.
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Old 01-05-2015, 08:52 AM
Dawnfeld Dawnfeld is offline

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Eh.
Just another suggested solution to balance the scales to prevent people from being upset over the Alliance taking back their stuff.
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Old 01-05-2015, 09:01 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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While the Dwarves tend to believe they're the only one's allowed to do any research into anything Titanic, and tend to act as though they've the right to kill any non-Dwarves who dare look upon a Titanic facility, that doesn't actually make it so. The presence of Titanic experiments presents a potential security threat, so the Horde would have every reason to study it and keep it in check.

As for the Alliance being out of ports into Eastern Kalimdor, I believe the purpose of this thread was to discuss how to improve the Horde's situation in Kalimdor, so the Alliance's status in Dustwallow is of little concern. However, if the Alliance were to insist in rebuilding in or around the ruins of Theramore, the Horde would probably want to tighten its control of the roads through the Barrens, so as to deter Theramore trying to pull the same stunt again.
The dwarves do have an unreasonable attitude towards Titan facilities and artifacts. it is generally safer though to leave said Titan facility alone rather than go digging around in it.

The Horde shouldn't be trying to strengthen its position to the extent it is moving into Alliance territory. IF it wants Duskwallow, checking with the Alliance first to see if they are going to return would be the smartest and safest option. Otherwise conflict would erupt again when an Alliance recolonization group landed to find the Horde setting up shop in/around the ruins of Theramore. A little common sense and forethought on the Horde's part would be prudent. I do see the Horde setting up small fortifications along the roads in the Barrens though.

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No but the titans aren't unbeatable or infallible
But they do tend to leave everyone alone if they aren't bothered themselves.

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Well it's true that it's a tauren town there from Vanilla but the orcs have always been helping them move in. I can agree the tauren wouldn't want the area clear-cut by goblins but they wouldn't likely try and cut the other races out entirely from leadership in the region. I'm thinking a Mok'nathal will lead the region, primarily to reign in the other local ogres and gnolls.
Why a Mok'nathal? All you need to do is kill the ogres and gnolls. Why rule over them? What's the fascination of Mok'nathal? I'd rather keep the leadership positions in Tauren hands. Sort of like each area/nation of the Horde is in command of the forces in those lands; ie trolls in command in troll areas, orc in orc, goblin in goblin, blood elf in sin'dorei lands and so on; rather than orcs leading everything everywhere. Maybe some orcs can be advisers, but the military forces in Feralas would be under Tauren command and control. And given the last few expansions, it should only be common sense (the least common sense, unfortunately) that they would not necessarily want to have orcs in charge of the military. Especially in areas where they want to avoid conflicts with the Alliance.

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Possible, but even then it sits between two Horde capitals really.

And Bilgewater harbor and Warsong Hold should've taken years too, it's a fantasy game we can fudge certain things.
Separated by hundreds of miles from those Horde capitals.

With how fast things are built/rebuilt, I am just going to go with it being game play. Blizzard is very very bad at realizing that many of the things that were built would take months, if not years for most, or decades. Even with magic, building large structures/cities that fast is breaking suspension.

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The north area? Sure, though I'd prefer the Night Elves or worgen hold it rather than the Cenarions.

Give the Alliance control of the northern Emerald Dream portal? I figured it would be safer in neutral hands. So far Sylvanas has shown she is somewhat leery of attacking neutrals. And I definitely do NOT want the forsaken to have access to that place. But if you want to give it to the Night elves and/or worgen.. /shrug That gives about half the zone to the Alliance then.

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This is why I see Feralas and Desolace being addressed after a period of recovery, right now the Horde can't contest them. The centaur now calling themselves the sons of cenarius would make them too likely to side with the nelves against the tauren and orcs.


Assuming we're not already at war, but yes, Hinterlands Horde forces are too small and spread out to maintain themselves.
The Horde actually has a better presence in Desolace than the Alliance. There's a native troll tribe there (Shadowprey, is it?) while the Alliance place is minimal at best (assuming it wasn't destroyed) . The sons of Cenarius aren't likely to side with anyone enmass. Maybe a tribe might, but I think that is just more of 'this group can help us stomp on our enemies and help us rule supreme in this land!' rather than 'these Elves follow/revere the father of our race, let's ally with them!' The centaurs seem pretty pissed off with everyone.
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